# To pump up, or not to pump up?



## RoBoTeq

I have raised the question of using pump ups or other methods to raise heat pumps above pads for proper defrost melt off drainage elsewhere. Since some who post here do not post on some other forums, I am interested in hearing what you use, how it works out for you, and what do you think might be better.


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## beenthere

I use a 3/4" vibration pad to raise them up.

LOL... J/K, I use 6" pump ups.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> I use a 3/4" vibration pad to raise them up.
> 
> LOL... J/K, I use 6" pump ups.


Have you seen the Heat Pump Pad that is an 8" high star shaped single piece pad?


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## beenthere

No I haven't.


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## RoBoTeq

I've been getting my contractors to use this thing so I don't have damaged coil issues from ice forming around the bottom rows of coils and crushing them.
.


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## beenthere

Now thats cool.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Now thats cool.


It also eliminates having to mess with situating pump ups and having to have two people set the heat pumps.

The base is sloped higher toward the center so that any buildup of ice or snow sheds off of the base when it melts.

It only comes in 36" by 36" from what I can tell, but we are being told that other sizes are being considered. It looks really nice under JCI premium cabinet heat pumps.


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## beenthere

Not sure it will support the compressor in YZE and YZH models though. The base of those models as you may recall is plastic.

But looks like its about ideal for any model that has a metal base.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Not sure it will support the compressor in YZE and YZH models though. The base of those models as you may recall is plastic.
> 
> But looks like its about ideal for any model that has a metal base.


It is actually ideal for composit based units because it gives more support in more areas then do pump ups, even if you use 5 or six pump ups.

The composit based units are mostly what I encourage contractors to use these heat pump pads for. 

There is less chance of sound vibrations from not getting the pump ups under the compressor section properly as well. I have not had one complaint from any of my contractors who use these things other then they wish they came in different sizes.


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## beenthere

Cool. I'll keep them in mind.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Cool. I'll keep them in mind.


We have plenty of them in stock. You can order one with every system you order:thumbsup:


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## seatonheating

Don't need to raise them up here.


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## RoBoTeq

seatonheating said:


> Don't need to raise them up here.


Why not? Your temperatures never go to freezing? Your coils never frost up? With that misty stuff you guys call rain going on all of the time, I would think you could have some major issues.

Just because you don't get snow does not mean you won't have problems with ice. One of the worst things our industry has done is to call pump ups "snow legs".


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## seatonheating

RoBoTeq said:


> Why not? Your temperatures never go to freezing? Your coils never frost up? With that misty stuff you guys call rain going on all of the time, I would think you could have some major issues.
> 
> Just because you don't get snow does not mean you won't have problems with ice. One of the worst things our industry has done is to call pump ups "snow legs".


 
33 years old, 16 in the industry, and I have never seen a heat pump have ice buildup issues here.

When it is cold here, it is usually fairly dry. 

Bottom-line, it WILL NOT happen here.


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## RoBoTeq

seatonheating said:


> 33 years old, 16 in the industry, and I have never seen a heat pump have ice buildup issues here.
> 
> When it is cold here, it is usually fairly dry.
> 
> Bottom-line, it WILL NOT happen here.


Cockeyness such as this will bite you in the butt someday. Would it not be better to not only spend a few dollars for insurance against a thing that physics dictates can happen? Would it not be a great marketing concept to differentiate your company from the others who are not taking the extra precautions to avoid possible disasterous issues?

Here are the facts; If the amount of moisture in the air and the temperature of the heat pump coil drop below relative dew point, then heat pumps should be raised off of pads to allow for proper drainage of melted frost/ice during defrost. 

Judging by this forcast for Washington State, I'd say that only fools would take a chance on not raising heat pumps up off of pads so that they can drain off during defrost cycles;


> *Alpental Exit*
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> Condition: N/A
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> 24hr High/Low: 62ºF / 37ºF
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> Dew Point: 38ºF
> Visibility: N/A
> Wind Speed: 2mph
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> Details and Extended Forecast


I have more then twice the years in the HVAC industry that you have, and a third of those years has been spent specifically looking at failed equipment installed by others. Just because you have not yet seen, or more likely not recognized, issues caused by iceing, does not mean they don't exist.

Instead of denying a fact of physics, why not use the knowledge to better yourself and do better for your customers?


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## seatonheating

RoBoTeq said:


> Cockeyness such as this will bite you in the butt someday. Would it not be better to not only spend a few dollars for insurance against a thing that physics dictates can happen? Would it not be a great marketing concept to differentiate your company from the others who are not taking the extra precautions to avoid possible disasterous issues?
> 
> Here are the facts; If the amount of moisture in the air and the temperature of the heat pump coil drop below relative dew point, then heat pumps should be raised off of pads to allow for proper drainage of melted frost/ice during defrost.
> 
> Judging by this forcast for Washington State, I'd say that only fools would take a chance on not raising heat pumps up off of pads so that they can drain off during defrost cycles;
> 
> I have more then twice the years in the HVAC industry that you have, and a third of those years has been spent specifically looking at failed equipment installed by others. Just because you have not yet seen, or more likely not recognized, issues caused by iceing, does not mean they don't exist.
> 
> Instead of denying a fact of physics, why not use the knowledge to better yourself and do better for your customers?


 
Robin, you are posting current conditions of Snoqualmie Pass, a ski resort. Get real man and do some research before you start thinking you know more about my area than I. 

That being said, it is fairly cold up there. If I was installing a system there I assure you I would use different methods. Even though most of the year it is still pretty drippy.

Trust me, to even conceive of doing it in the Puget Sound area is nonsense.


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## RoBoTeq

seatonheating said:


> Robin, you are posting current conditions of Snoqualmie Pass, a ski resort. Get real man and do some research before you start thinking you know more about my area than I.
> 
> That being said, it is fairly cold up there. If I was installing a system there I assure you I would use different methods. Even though most of the year it is still pretty drippy.
> 
> Trust me, to even conceive of doing it in the Puget Sound area is nonsense.


That is exactly the kind of talk I get from most installer's who I have to refuse warranty on a crushed tubing coil for. No seaton, I cannot trust someone who is implying that the laws of physics do not apply to his area because he has not personal seen or realized an issue can occur.


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## seatonheating

RoBoTeq said:


> That is exactly the kind of talk I get from most installer's who I have to refuse warranty on a crushed tubing coil for. No seaton, I cannot trust someone who is implying that the laws of physics do not apply to his area because he has not personal seen or realized an issue can occur.


I know, I know, you'll take it to your grave...blah blah blah. 

I've chipped ice away from many an AC or HP that the defrost has failed and have never seen a coil damaged as the result. I'm talking 12-18" of ice, serious stuff!!

It's not an issue. Pump ups are for the purpose giving a heat pump proper intake air during operation. This talk of crushed coils is ridiculous.


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## beenthere

Pump ups have nothing to do with proper intake air during operation. They are for the aid of drainage during defrost.


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## seatonheating

beenthere said:


> Pump ups have nothing to do with proper intake air during operation. They are for the aid of drainage during defrost.


 
Obviously, which I guarantee you isn't an issue here. Even with an old timer-defrost system you still never get more than a skim-coat of frost buildup in our marine climate. Doesn't take 4-6" of area underneath the unit to drain this, the factory drainage works fine.

Now, as Robin linked to, if I am installing a heat pump up at the Summit of Snoqualmie Pass, or any point above 2000', I am definitely going to use different methods.

But as stated before, it isn't necessary here in the Sound.


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## RoBoTeq

seatonheating said:


> I know, I know, you'll take it to your grave...blah blah blah.
> 
> I've chipped ice away from many an AC or HP that the defrost has failed and have never seen a coil damaged as the result. I'm talking 12-18" of ice, serious stuff!!
> 
> It's not an issue. Pump ups are for the purpose giving a heat pump proper intake air during operation. This talk of crushed coils is ridiculous.


You have just made my case for me Josh. I know better then to attempt to teach you anything when you are in this mode, so I'll just say; "good luck to you."


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## RoBoTeq

seatonheating said:


> Obviously, which I guarantee you isn't an issue here. Even with an old timer-defrost system you still never get more than a skim-coat of frost buildup in our marine climate. Doesn't take 4-6" of area underneath the unit to drain this, the factory drainage works fine.
> 
> Now, as Robin linked to, if I am installing a heat pump up at the Summit of Snoqualmie Pass, or any point above 2000', I am definitely going to use different methods.
> 
> But as stated before, it isn't necessary here in the Sound.


You admit the heat pumps ice up. Do heat pumps also go into defrost when they are iced up? If so, does water from melted ice run down to the bottom of the heat pump? Can that water refreeze around the bottom row of copper coil when the heat pump is operational? 

If ice can form, you need to provide a way for the melted ice to drain off and away from the bottom of the heat pump. This is physics, not opinion.


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## ironpit

*pump up or not to*

I have been on three calls this year where the units defrost failed to cut out the fan, causing the meltdown to refreeze into solid, clear ice before being able to drain out of the unit. That wasn't christmas tinsel at the bottom two rows, it was two rows of crushed coils. I have never before heard anyone deny that crushed coils happen. Around here, pump-ups are used for heat pumps, and the good companies use the miniture ones for a/c in case of freezing winter rains. As for thinking that pump-ups are for ventilation or airflow, it might be so, but that ice cold air being pulled through the bottom of the units refeeze the meltdown real fast, in these cases , before it can drain. I have seen many a/c units sitting on the ground in blocks of ice. Some, not all, have the tinseled coils. They leak dye quite well at times.


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## ironpit

the rubber pads on the new base are adjustable center to outside. this is a very good product


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## RoBoTeq

ironpit said:


> the rubber pads on the new base are adjustable center to outside. this is a very good product


I agree. And even if the heat pump pad does stick out past the base of the smaller heat pumps, it doesn't look that bad.


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