# New technology for residential; is it worth it?



## RoBoTeq

I can absolutely see the benefits of inverter and variable refrigerant flow technology for office buildings and institutional applications, but is it ever going to be worth the cost for residential use?

Is the Westinghouse 23 SEER system selling anywhere? I mean really, does 23 SEER really benefit even the hottest of regions at the current additional cost of the system?

I want to sell Sanyo Eco-I systems for applications that they will be beneficial, but the cost factor is just too great to be practical. Anyone running into this yet?


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## hvaclover

Nordyne built that 23 SEER to prove they are a player in this industry.

Like you said all inverter stuff makes sense in commercial buildings where every penny saved adds to a bottom line, but in a home for the average joe, it makes no sense.

The guys who are buying the 23 Seer stuff are guys who love technology, of which I am one.

I was going to put one in my own home but the branch mgr recommended against it. Found out there were issues nobody was talking about out side the company.

Caught the straight poop on hvac talk. Glad I didn't buy one. 

Can you say York Triathlon?:yes:


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## beenthere

hvaclover said:


> Can you say York Triathlon?:yes:


Ouch.


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## beenthere

I don't think it should just be thought of by the SEER rating.
More, by the comfort factor.

Eventually. Copeland will get their modulating scrolls in residential units. And we will see the big push by all companies then. And the price won't be as big of a jump as the Nordyne IQ.


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## hvaclover

beenthere said:


> I don't think it should just be thought of by the SEER rating.
> More, by the comfort factor.
> 
> Eventually. Copeland will get their modulating scrolls in residential units. And we will see the big push by all companies then. And the price won't be as big of a jump as the Nordyne IQ.



Modulating as in variable speed? All I have heard about is the unloading type capacity control and two stage type.

How long have they been using them? 


God, I am falling so far behind lately.


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## beenthere

They aren't in any residential units yet. They might have gotten someone to try one in a commercial unit I seem to recall.

They have been working on it for a few years now.

And yes, modulating. With a greater turn down ration then the Westinghouse IQ.


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## hvaclover

beenthere said:


> They aren't in any residential units yet. They might have gotten someone to try one in a commercial unit I seem to recall.
> 
> They have been working on it for a few years now.
> 
> And yes, modulating. With a greater turn down ration then the Westinghouse IQ.



Oye! The calendar girl of the year AC:sweatdrop::biggrin:!!


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> I don't think it should just be thought of by the SEER rating.
> More, by the comfort factor.
> 
> Eventually. Copeland will get their modulating scrolls in residential units. And we will see the big push by all companies then. And the price won't be as big of a jump as the Nordyne IQ.


This is probably true. Once a product is more mass produced, it becomes less expensive.

It would resolve a lot of oversizing issues which could be beneficial for oversizing heat pumps for less need for auxilliary electric heat.


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## milk man

What is inverter technology?

And Could a 23 SEER unit compete in the ground source market? How efficient are ground sources?


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## RoBoTeq

The problem with 23 SEER air to air versus ground source heat pumps is in the heating mode. While ground source heat pumps stay fairly stable in capacity, standard air to air heat pumps lose capacity as the OD temps drop, exactly when more capacity is needed. 

Tha Acadia heat pump is the only exception to this factor right now, but it is only rated at 14 SEER in the cooling mode.


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## beenthere

milk man said:


> What is inverter technology?
> 
> And Could a 23 SEER unit compete in the ground source market? How efficient are ground sources?


They use a AC to DC inverter and control the frequency of power to the compressor to control its speed.
There by controlling capacity of the compressor.

Many can actually operate at a capacity above nominal rating in a boost mode.

EG: A 2 ton in boost mode running at 26 or 28,000 BTUs to pull temp down quickly.


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## Yuri

Fujitsu uses inverter technology/ECM compressors in their high end mini-splits.


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## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> The problem with 23 SEER air to air versus ground source heat pumps is in the heating mode. While ground source heat pumps stay fairly stable in capacity, standard air to air heat pumps lose capacity as the OD temps drop, exactly when more capacity is needed.
> 
> Tha Acadia heat pump is the only exception to this factor right now, but it is only rated at 14 SEER in the cooling mode.


Well the way I understand it, ground source heat pumps can be competitive is to use a hybrid system. That is in conjunction with a small cooling tower in the South and a small hot water heater in the North to cover about half the capacity and then you will only need to dig half the wells and you use your HP for 70 to 80 % of your needs and the back up only in extreme conditions.


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## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Well the way I understand it, ground source heat pumps can be competitive is to use a hybrid system. That is in conjunction with a small cooling tower in the South and a small hot water heater in the North to cover about half the capacity and then you will only need to dig half the wells and you use your HP for 70 to 80 % of your needs and the back up only in extreme conditions.


We're discussing the benefits of higher efficiency technology in residential applications.


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## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> We're discussing the benefits of higher efficiency technology in residential applications.


Yeah but it works for buildings why wouldn't it work for say a mansion. Only a mansion would look at getting s system like that anyhow. I know someone who has a small chiller in their basement. Naturaly for a mansion but still there are such things.


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## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Yeah but it works for buildings why wouldn't it work for say a mansion. Only a mansion would look at getting s system like that anyhow. I know someone who has a small chiller in their basement. Naturaly for a mansion but still there are such things.


I've seen older mansions with chiller systems in them, but not ground source heat pump chillers. I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for such applications, but I'm referring to standard residential applications.


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## beenthere

Water source is not new technology.


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## KnightRider

A rough rule of thumb in my area is about 200 ft of pipe per ton of ac for a ground water system. So you are talking about 1000 ft of pipe for a 5 ton and unless you have lots of available land you go with a series of vertical wells. 

Now if you supplement the ground water system with a real small cooling tower that would save you on installation because you could reduce your drilling and laying pipe in half and only when it is real hot do you even need to use the cooling tower. That is what my dealer is telling me. Just wanted to pass this along. It won't work up North because there you have a problem in winter more than summer.


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## RoBoTeq

YO! Knighty; another thread on what you are posting would be nice. This thread is about how much new technology is going to be beneficial in the residential market.

Will inverter and variable refrigerant flow systems be worthwhile in the average home? Will solar systems be worthwhile? These sorts of things.


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## beenthere

Knight, you are probably being slightly mislead.

Start a new thread, if you haven't already.


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## hvaclover

The only thing Green about me is my excrement:laughing:


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## Yuri

Drinkin too much of that Moosehead Beer are we?:drink::clover:


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## hvaclover

Yuri said:


> Drinkin too much of that Moosehead Beer are we?:drink::clover:


LOL the clover helps keep the aroma in check.:laughing:


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## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> The only thing Green about me is my excrement:laughing:


TMI clover, and I ain't referring to


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## hvaclover

RoBoTeq said:


> TMI clover, and I ain't referring to


O comon now! You promised not to bring that up. How was I supposed to know that was a reverse back sitting shut off valve for the cooling core:sad:


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## RoBoTeq

I drove past there Thursday with our ClimateMaster rep who asked me later if he was glowing yet.


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## milk man

KnightRider, good points. Don't let those guys run you off.


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## hvaclover

milk man said:


> KnightRider, good points. Don't let those old farts run you off.



Watch it BOY, these old farts were dangerous before you were even a glint in you test tube.

respect the post count


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## milk man

hvaclover said:


> Watch it BOY, these old farts were dangerous before you were even a glint in you test tube.
> 
> respect the post count


 
Post count means nothing. Oh forgive me, it means some have nothing better to do.

And how do you know I'm not black, a phrase like BOY is very offensive to some.


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## hvaclover

milk man said:


> Post count means nothing. Oh forgive me, it means some have nothing better to do.
> 
> And how do you know I'm not black, a phrase like BOY is very offensive to some.


 I believe the appropriate designation for we people of color is African American. And you think OLDFART is respectful?
Would not matter to me if you were blue.
Respect your elders


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## milk man

hvaclover said:


> I believe the appropriate designation for we people of color is African American. And you think OLDFART is respectful?
> Would not matter to me if you were blue.
> Respect your elders


Or what?

Respect is earned. Respect is not earned by age or post count.


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## RoBoTeq

Does putting the word "milk" in your name now designate a lifestyle preferrence because of Harvey Milk?

I thought I'd be getting away from that whiney stuff by posting here.


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## hvaclover

Rh-oh!


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## beenthere

milk man said:


> KnightRider, good points. Don't let those guys run you off.


No one is running him off.

Just requesting that he start a new thread for a geo discussion. Specially since he thinks using an expensive fossiel fuel is cheaper then using a geo at low temps.

Which makes it a topic all its own.


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## hvaclover

beenthere said:


> No one is running him off.
> 
> Just requesting that he start a new thread for a geo discussion. Specially since he thinks using an expensive fossiel fuel is cheaper then using a geo at low temps.
> 
> Which makes it a topic all its own.


Been walks heavy and carries a little stick.:001_tongue::blink:


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## beenthere

hvaclover said:


> Been walks heavy and carries a little stick.:001_tongue::blink:


LOL... Ya, I need to go on a diet. :laughing:


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## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> Been walks heavy and carries a little stick.:001_tongue::blink:


May be true, but he is correct. 

So, is anyone interested in discussing whether or not new technology for residential is worth the cost or is it pretty much not a topic of interest?

I don't mind this thread meandering into personal thought posts, I just have no interest in reading someone attempting to cause an issue that doesn't exist.


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## beenthere

Its like any industry adding more or new technology to its product.

If the manufacuterer doesn't do enough R&D before they put it in the field. Then many of the first customers will pay dearly to perfect that technology.
However, if they do the proper R&D first. Then the early customers, have a system/product that they are happy with. 
And the manufacturers get positive feed back. That they are focusing in the proper direction.

Tech for techs sake, is of little use to anybody.
But, when it improves comfort, diagnostics, and or reliability, it becomes a worthwhile advancement.

While thermopiles and thermocouples may provide a less complicated operation. The loss of efficiency as fuel prices go up. Make that reliability mute. As long as manufacturers use reliable tech, and impliment proper quality control.


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## RoBoTeq

A major issue I see in our industry with R&D is that R&D rarely tests new technology under real life circumstances.

Sure, some of the new logic boards controlling staging and blower functions are really worthwhile, but do they really belong exposed in blower compartments? Same with defrost control boards that must be well protectected with shellac coatings to prevent moisture and varian temperatures from adversely affecting them.

Who could have foreseen that the ozone produced by electronic air cleaners, burner and blower motors etc. would destroy the rubber tubing used for pressure switch and condensate removal hoses?


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## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> Does putting the word "milk" in your name now designate a lifestyle preferrence because of Harvey Milk?
> 
> I thought I'd be getting away from that whiney stuff by posting here.





Why is it you know all the gay guys? I had to look it up on Google to know who you where talking about. 

Let's review, you tell Knight he's off topic, then go about talking about farting. (Hence the crack about old farts) 

I worked on a system that uses a cooling tower, electric boiler, solar collectors, and a water source heat pump. (no ground loop) Although each on it's self is not new technology, but running short loop and coupling these is a newer concept to at least ME. And maybe someone else.

To talk about if new technology is beneficial one needs to compare it to "old" technology. And weighing the cost of a Geo system with short loops and back up equipment as opposed to inverter technology seemed to be in line of the spirit of the thread. But I guess farting is what ties everything together:001_unsure:


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## Yuri

Ozone eating hoses? If they use a GOOD quality silicone hose we would have no problems, the cheap rubber is the problem. The board has to go somewhere and there is not enough room in the burner area which is hot and heat kills electronics. As long as it is properly secured on the furnace deck and NOT on the vibrating fan it works well. As far as I know Lennox and ICP take their latest furnaces install them in a district reps house for a year and test them under real life conditions. Does not replicate every scenario but it helps. The biggest problem is the quality of the switching relays. If they used industrial quality relays and better quality ventor motors there would be less problems. Problem is the Goodmans of the world cater to the low end builders market and drive down the quality and cost of the units to rock bottom. Nobody wants to pay an extra $1000 on a furnace for Mercedes quality engineering when a salesman says his "brown box" is just as good and you are only paying more for the big guys name.


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## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> A major issue I see in our industry with R&D is that R&D rarely tests new technology under real life circumstances.
> 
> *Sure, some of the new logic boards controlling staging and blower functions are really worthwhile, but do they really belong exposed in blower compartments? *Same with defrost control boards that must be well protectected with shellac coatings to prevent moisture and varian temperatures from adversely affecting them.
> 
> Who could have foreseen that the ozone produced by electronic air cleaners, burner and blower motors etc. would destroy the rubber tubing used for pressure switch and condensate removal hoses?


I thought they put those in the blower compartment to keep them cool. The return air would do that. I remember Carrier relocated some of their boards due to overheating.


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## beenthere

Thats the problem.

R&D runs it in a lab, and simulates 1 or 2 years.
Then maybe it goes in a real home for 30 days.

After that, its in regular production, without any real feed back.

All the manufacturers could install that new tech in an employee's home for 2 years. To see if it works the way it should. Before releasing it to be a production unit.

A lot of headaches would be eliminated if they did that.


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## beenthere

If they put the defost board in the air handler. Way too many MORE units would never be wired correctly.


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## Yuri

Milkman that is true also. Plus the burner area on the ultra low 34 inch high Rheems and Carrier CTAs only have room for the board in the fan compartment.


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## milk man

Yuri said:


> Milkman that is true also. Plus the burner area on the ultra low 31 inch high Rheems and Carrier CTAs only have room for the board in the fan compartment.


 
I left a Carrier dealer right as the 33" tall furnace came out. But for what I've seen of them, I like them. I think they are very serviceable.


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## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> Ozone eating hoses? If they use a GOOD quality silicone hose we would have no problems, the cheap rubber is the problem.


This is true. However, not one manufacturer knew this when rubber hoses were first being used for IDB controls and condensing furnace condensate removal. It became known after years in the field.


> The board has to go somewhere and there is not enough room in the burner area which is hot and heat kills electronics. As long as it is properly secured on the furnace deck and NOT on the vibrating fan it works well.


Again, no one knew about the issues that happened to all manufacturers equipment until after the equipment had been in the field for several years.


> As far as I know Lennox and ICP take their latest furnaces install them in a district reps house for a year and test them under real life conditions. Does not replicate every scenario but it helps.


All manufacturer's do this. Do you think the installers take any application or installation risks installing these test units?


> The biggest problem is the quality of the switching relays. If they used industrial quality relays and better quality ventor motors there would be less problems. Problem is the Goodmans of the world cater to the low end builders market and drive down the quality and cost of the units to rock bottom.


And this is why you will never be anything but a follower of what what manufacturers want you to be and know. Whoever thinks that any specific brand of equipment is better or worse then any other just has no desire to understand how industry really works. They are all the same in the end.


> Nobody wants to pay an extra $1000 on a furnace for Mercedes quality engineering when a salesman says his "brown box" is just as good and you are only paying more for the big guys name.


Really has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. This is a marketing issues and it will never go away. It also provides every one of us with continual work, so don't be looking this gift horse too closely in the mouth.


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## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> I thought they put those in the blower compartment to keep them cool. The return air would do that. I remember Carrier relocated some of their boards due to overheating.


Let's face it, controls should be in isolated compartments. Since that is more costly, all manufacturer's are doing what they can to cut costs without having issues.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Thats the problem.
> 
> R&D runs it in a lab, and simulates 1 or 2 years.
> Then maybe it goes in a real home for 30 days.
> 
> After that, its in regular production, without any real feed back.
> 
> All the manufacturers could install that new tech in an employee's home for 2 years. To see if it works the way it should. Before releasing it to be a production unit.
> 
> A lot of headaches would be eliminated if they did that.


Not gonna happen. New technology does not stay new for long. As soon as a manufacturer can get new technology to work they are going to put it on the market so they can be ahead of the competition in doing so.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> If they put the defost board in the air handler. Way too many MORE units would never be wired correctly.


 Think about most ductless sytems. Where are the controls?


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## beenthere

I know. And thats why I said that is a problem.


York. When they brought out the mod with the PSC motor.
Only had one installed in a house for 30 days. Before it hit the market.

And that one had bad bearings in the ball bearing blower.


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## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> This is true. However, not one manufacturer knew this when rubber hoses were first being used for IDB controls and condensing furnace condensate removal. It became known after years in the field.Again, no one knew about the issues that happened to all manufacturers equipment until after the equipment had been in the field for several years. All manufacturer's do this. Do you think the installers take any application or installation risks installing these test units?And this is why you will never be anything but a follower of what what manufacturers want you to be and know. Whoever thinks that any specific brand of equipment is better or worse then any other just has no desire to understand how industry really works. *They are all the same in the end.*Really has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. This is a marketing issues and it will never go away. It also provides every one of us with continual work, so don't be looking this gift horse too closely in the mouth.


No they are not. Lets agree to disagree, or at least in this thread:thumbsup:


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## Yuri

Research and Development? WE all know that everything revolves around the $$ and the R and D has been done many years ago. There are better quality relays, motors out there but nobody uses them because of cost. Try and tell us that a BMW is the same quality as a Chevy Cavalier are you? And I absolutely love the poor quality issues. I make lots of $$ selling replacement units for all the cracked 15 yr old ICPs etc.


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## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> Think about most ductless sytems. Where are the controls?


Most ductless systems. Are connected with (or should be ) SJO with the proper number of conductors. From cassette to condenser.
And I have seen a couple of them still wired wrong.

Ok, the guy that installed them was color blind.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> I know. And thats why I said that is a problem.
> 
> 
> York. When they brought out the mod with the PSC motor.
> Only had one installed in a house for 30 days. Before it hit the market.
> 
> And that one had bad bearings in the ball bearing blower.


What on Earth was the point of having a psc motor in a mod furnace? That is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever encountered in our industry and I have to say, the people at York were not happy about my saying this when I was at the factory for training.


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## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> No they are not. Lets agree to disagree, or at least in this thread:thumbsup:


I cannot agree to disagree on this. If you are hung up on brand, for or against, you are limiting yourself in this industry.


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## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> Research and Development? WE all know that everything revolves around the $$ and the R and D has been done many years ago. There are better quality relays, motors out there but nobody uses them because of cost. Try and tell us that a BMW is the same quality as a Chevy Cavalier are you? And I absolutely love the poor quality issues. I make lots of $$ selling replacement units for all the cracked 15 yr old ICPs etc.


To be fair, every R&D department of every brand of equipment I have seen, which is most, the engineers are really devoted to making products better.

The problem comes in with the fact that the R&D divisions of manufacturing do not have the last say on a product going to market. You have layers of bean counters who get paid well to reduce the cost of every component in every product even if it is only by pennies. The product that hits the market is never the product that the R&D engineers came up with initially.


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## hvaclover

Nordyne puts there boards in the vestibule. Including the ECM board.

United technologies makes the boards. 

The new 33" furnaces look like 5lbs of wheat in a two pound bag in the burner section. Looks like it would be a nightmare to work on cause everything is so tight . 

Quite the contrary. Very easy one you have worked on one job.

Nordyne is good on R&D. Every year something is improved or new introduced.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Ok, the guy that installed them was color blind.


Been there, done that, cost me dearly in time and aggravation.


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## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> What on Earth was the point of having a psc motor in a mod furnace? That is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever encountered in our industry and I have to say, the people at York were not happy about my saying this when I was at the factory for training.


Apparently, the Baldor ball bearing motor, and that damg control board with the Triacs is cheaper then a VS blower.
And does work as well in heating.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Apparently, the Baldor ball bearing motor, and that damg control board with the Triacs is cheaper then a VS blower.
> And does work as well in heating.


But there is no efficiency benefit and it cannot be that much difference in cost to justify going through all of that to make a psc motor function similarly to a vs motor.

York keeps wondering why it has problems, yet they keep defending stupid products such as mod furnaces with psc motors and college logos on condenser and heat pump panels.


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## beenthere

ROFL. I only ever sold 3 of the panel options.

The PSC may not cost less to operate, Or as little.
But, it is considerably less upfront.

Its just a Sales/Marketing thing.


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## hvaclover

Hey, what I ani't getting is why a company like a Nordyne and a few models of Goodman have a DC motor, not VS, just straight DC.?

The nordyne can be converted to VS with a $375 board.


Other than that what's the straight poop?


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## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> Hey, what I ani't getting is why a company like a Nordyne and a few models of Goodman have a DC motor, not VS, just straight DC.?
> 
> The nordyne can be converted to VS with a $375 board.
> 
> 
> Other than that what's the straight poop?


The X13 motor is basically the same as a vs motor, just without the control features. A less expensive way to upgrade cooling and heat pump systems to higher efficiencies without the expense, or benefits of a vs blower.


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## beenthere

MONEY.

It doesn't cost as much. So it sells better.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> MONEY.
> 
> It doesn't cost as much. So it sells better.


Exactly. Just another way to take a good idea and screw it up.


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## Yuri

Just watch, in the next 5yrs most standard furnaces and airhandlers will have that X13 motor. The cost of them will drop as they sell lots of them. Along with compact fluorescent bulbs some areas will make them mandatory. Canada probably being the first to ban PSC motors. We won't be selling anything less than 94% furnaces SOON. If you think we are harsh you should visit Europe and see the very tight recycling and energy conservation laws. As long as it is economical I am all for it.


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## beenthere

I wish they would ban anything under 90 some percent here.


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## RoBoTeq

I have to agree with there being no reason to have a furnace that's less then 90% efficient, even 93%. The argument that more southern areas can't justify the cost for a condensing furnace is a moot point with the heat pumps that are available.

I also agree that the psc motor will quickly become a dinosaur that will be replaced with lower efficiency DC motors, whether variable speed controlled or not. These DC motors can easily be operated off of the amount of power produced by relatively cost effective solar voltaic panels. Just think, with solar powered blower and controls on a gas furnace, there would be no fear of a power outage.


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## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> Just think, with solar powered blower and controls on a gas furnace, there would be no fear of a power outage.


Unless it was dark outside. :laughing:


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Unless it was dark outside. :laughing:


B-a-t-t-e-r-i-e-s


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## beenthere

Storage systems are very expensive upfront, and to maintain.

No ROI in most areas.


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## milk man

Lennox has a solar assist condenser fan motor on a Heat pump.

We where not encouraged to sell it for it has other limitations and not a good fit in my area.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Storage systems are very expensive upfront, and to maintain.
> 
> No ROI in most areas.


This is actually an area I don't know much about. It just seems to me that this is the sort of thing that will be coming at us in the near future.

The company I work for is anticipating selling solar voltaic to go with our line of solar water heating. The tax incentives for solar voltaic are even better then they are for solar water heating and geothermal.


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## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> Lennox has a solar assist condenser fan motor on a Heat pump.
> 
> We where not encouraged to sell it for it has other limitations and not a good fit in my area.


This Lennox marketing toy is what gave me the idea that this sort of thing will soon be perfected enough to make it actually worthwhile.

You say it is now a solar assist on the Lennox. Is there any sort of battery storage, maybe a capacitor or something, or does the solar assist only kick in when the sun is shining?


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## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> I have to agree with there being no reason to have a furnace that's less then 90% efficient, even 93%. The argument that more southern areas can't justify the cost for a condensing furnace is a moot point with the heat pumps that are available.
> 
> I also agree that the psc motor will quickly become a dinosaur that will be replaced with lower efficiency DC motors, whether variable speed controlled or not. These DC motors can easily be operated off of the amount of power produced by relatively cost effective solar voltaic panels. Just think, with solar powered blower and controls on a gas furnace, there would be no fear of a power outage.


I have to argue the point. 90% + furnaces don't cost that much more for new construction because you don't have to run the double wall vent stack up to the roof with a 90+ unit. Plus with the savings on fuel you should be able to recover within 2 or 3 years and less than a year if your going from a basement up two floors and a attic above. Now a heat pump is probably the cheapest option on new construction overall the way I see it in the South.


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## KnightRider

double post


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## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> I have to argue the point. 90% + furnaces don't cost that much more for new construction because you don't have to run the double wall vent stack up to the roof with a 90+ unit. Plus with the savings on fuel you should be able to recover within 2 or 3 years and less than a year if your going from a basement up two floors and a attic above. Now a heat pump is probably the cheapest option on new construction overall the way I see it in the South.


I'm talking about the real south. The last time I was in Kennesaw, GA it was freezing.


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## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> This Lennox marketing toy is what gave me the idea that this sort of thing will soon be perfected enough to make it actually worthwhile.
> 
> You say it is now a solar assist on the Lennox. Is there any sort of battery storage, maybe a capacitor or something, or does the solar assist only kick in when the sun is shining?


Only had about 15 minutes on it in class. I think the solar assist only works when the sun shines.


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## RoBoTeq

While we are on solar, even though it is not really new technology, it is getting better at heating water, does anyone use solar hot water to assist in radiant heat or to do spot radiant heating for small areas?

Technically, as long as you have a large enough dump to get rid of excess heat when not needed, you could do all of a homes radiant with solar. Would need a pool for the dump of excess heat and a lot of solar panels and storage tanks.

Solar hot water is doing fairly well on the commercial end. With vast roof space and less overall hot water needs to the average commercial area, solar hot water can easily handle commercial needs.

How much better and less costly does solar hot water need to be to be worthwhile for residential use?


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