# Acid in York heatpump split system



## heatme

What is the best way to treat acid in a hump pump system?


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## nicktech

heatme said:


> What is the best way to treat acid in a hump pump system?


 :laughing:whats a hump pump?!:blink:


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## nicktech

reclaim all the refrigerant, flush system with Rx-11 flush/nitro, install new liquid line and suction line dryers, use an acid neutralizer, pull a nice deep vacuum and use new refrigerant in the system.


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## jvegas

ya what he said:laughing:


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## Swampfox

Sell them a new one


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## mechanicalDvr

nicktech said:


> reclaim all the refrigerant, flush system with Rx-11 flush/nitro, install new liquid line and suction line dryers, use an acid neutralizer, pull a nice deep vacuum and use new refrigerant in the system.


 
I concur completely.


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## hvaclover

Swampfox said:


> Sell them a new one



I think you have "Sell them a new one on speed dail":001_tongue:


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## DuMass

I would like to add to the mayhem by saying that since you will most likely have to cut several lines anyway to thoroughly flush the system and check valves, remove and tip the compressor to drain out the oil, or use a suction pump and dip tube to remove as much as possible. Measure and refill with fresh oil. Go have a beer! :001_tongue:


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## airon

heatme said:


> What is the best way to treat acid in a hump pump system?


It depends on how much acid. How are you determining the acid exists. Secondly how did the acid get there? Hi temps over 300f plus and motor burns are the only acid causing things I know of in a sealed system. I'm sure there may be other things too but....

recovery and system purge are needed. 
An acid core filter drier should be installed preferably on the suction side, acid neutralyzer will help to carry acids to the drier. Replace the filter drier after 24 hrs and test again.

Virtually all the oil in a system is carried through in just a few minutes of operation. Its allways best to replace the oil but not allways feasible.

On a retest if acid still exists repeat as often as necessary. If real bad use flared filters or core driers for quick changes. Remove any suction driers after system is cleaned. ( do not use bi-flow type driers for this) Make sure the unit stays in cooling.


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## nicktech

airon said:


> It depends on how much acid. How are you determining the acid exists. Secondly how did the acid get there? Hi temps over 300f plus and motor burns are the only acid causing things I know of in a sealed system. I'm sure there may be other things too but.....


omg, the ONLY way acid exists in a sealed systen is if it is created there after moisture enters the system. through the hi pressure and temp of the compressor hydrogen from the moisture and chlorine and/or florine from the refrig fuse to create hydrochloric and hydrofloric acid. this acid eats away at the motor winding's insulation initially affecting the motors efficiency ultimately completely burning it out or shorting an interal winding to ground.
use a suction line dryer to help trap and contain acids and debris from burnout in tandem with a liquid line dryer. a suction line dryer is equipped with 2 access ports, the pressure difference between the two corrolates to a restriction. the max allowable psi diff is 1psi max, any more means the filter is loaded and needs to be replaced. the acid causes the burnout, not vise versa!


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## nicktech

airon said:


> Virtually all the oil in a system is carried through in just a few minutes of operation. Its allways best to replace the oil but not allways feasible.


virtually all the oil stays in the compressors sump, or crankcase. only a small amount of oil that gets caught up in the low side suction is circulated in normal operation. if oil is being pumped out of the compressor sump than either a piping issue exists, refrig. migration to oil on off cycle and upon start up the pressure change causes the gas to volumize the oil into foam pushing it out, or there is an oil overcharge. since refrig oil is hygroscopic it will attract any moisture into it and this is where most of the acid resides. if a compressor burns out, your changing it anyway, if not pour the oil out or pump it out and replace a couple of times. then rx11 flush the sh*t out of the lines and most oil and contamination is removed. a new compressor will be filled with oil, if alot of old oil is in the system, it may return to the new compressor, over filling it and slugging it causing problems, not to mention it's most likely contaminated with the same acid that killed the original one.


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## heatme

*works fine*

Thanks
to the many of you that post I bought a flush kit about$90.00 back flush the line set and the condenser and flush the rx111 with freon added suction dryer which was hell in that tight space added bi flow liquid line dryer added acid away neutralizer to compressor suction port pressure chek w/ nitrogen pulled a deep vaccuum. Chek acid w/ litmus paper plastic gauge one week later everything: amp pressures super heat within limits
Great to be talking to knowledgeable techs. I would buy you a beer if you were around.

HEATME


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## supertek65

airon said:


> It depends on how much acid. How are you determining the acid exists. Secondly how did the acid get there? Hi temps over 300f plus and motor burns are the only acid causing things I know of in a sealed system. I'm sure there may be other things too but....
> 
> recovery and system purge are needed.
> An acid core filter drier should be installed preferably on the suction side, acid neutralyzer will help to carry acids to the drier. Replace the filter drier after 24 hrs and test again.
> 
> Virtually all the oil in a system is carried through in just a few minutes of operation. Its allways best to replace the oil but not allways feasible.
> 
> On a retest if acid still exists repeat as often as necessary. If real bad use flared filters or core driers for quick changes. Remove any suction driers after system is cleaned. ( do not use bi-flow type driers for this) Make sure the unit stays in cooling.


There may come a day when your air conditioner or heat pump system fails to cool your home or business and you call an air conditioning and heating contractor to fix the problem. The air conditioning and heating HVAC technician arrives and starts the process of troubleshooting the system. About 30 minutes later the air conditioning and heating HVAC technician reports back to you that your compressor is burned-out and it either needs replacing or the HVAC system needs to be replaced. HVAC Compressor burn out is a serious and costly matter. Replacing the system requires a judgment call on your part based on the cost of the burned out HVAC compressor replacement (if the burned out HVAC compressor is still under warranty you may still have to pay for labor to replace the burned out HVAC compressor), the current age of the air conditioning and heating HVAC equipment, and whether you have the money in your budget to replace the HVAC system. Before any of that you'll want to know what happened to cause the HVAC compressor to burn out in the first place. There are many reasons why an air conditioning and heating HVAC compressor can burn up but the primary causes are neglect. Here is a list of possible reasons a HVAC compressor can burn out. Some of these reasons for HVAC compressor burn out are beyond your control but the things that are in your control need to be addressed on a regular schedule.

*Poor Maintenance* to the HVAC system especially the air conditioning or heat pump condenser. HVAC Compressors don't get compressor burn out because of poor maintenace on the HVAC compressor. Many hermetic HVAC compressors are maintenace free so you need to look at the condenser instead of the HVAC compressor. Over a period of time the air conditioning and heat pump condenser coils can become clogged with dust, dirt, and debris. This restricts air flow through the coils and causes pressures and temperatures to rise inside the air conditioner or heat pump condenser including the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor. Under extreme operating conditions the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor has to work harder to compress and pump the refrigerant through the air conditioner or heat pump system. When the compressor works harder it pulls more amperage which causes it to run hotter than normal. If the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor surprises its normal rated operating temperature things inside the compressor start to break down and eventually over time the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor will fail and the result is HVAC compressor burn out. There are built in protections against compressor overheating but these protections are prone to failure under extreme conditions or may allow the compressor to run at just below the temperature protection level but over time the air conditioning or heat pump HVAC compressor this higher than normal temperature will cause compressor burn out.
*Restriction in the refrigerant lines *can also cause a compressor to burn out. Compressor burn out can occur as a result of a malfunctioning or clogged metering device or damage to the refrigeration line set. The copper lines that run between the condenser and the evaporator coil can be damaged or crimped which will restrict the flow of refrigerant. This refrigerant flow restriction causes an imbalance in the pressures of the air conditioning or heat pump system which causes the air conditioner or heat pump compressor to work harder. This causes higher compressor operating temperatures and amp draws which leads to burn out especially under extreme operating conditions. A refrigerant line can become damaged when someone steps on or twists one of the copper lines running from the air conditioner or heat pump condenser to the evaporator coil which is usually located in the air handler. The damage may or may not affect the cooling capacity of the air conditioner or heat pump system but it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. There are instances when the installation crews inadvertently crimped the lines upon installation and the problem can remain hidden until the air conditioner or heat pump system has a compressor burn out. A good air conditioning or heat pump technician using thorough air conditioning and heating troubleshooting techniques can resolve the issue and prevent a compressor burn out before it happens.
*Restricted or malfunctioning metering device *can also cause the air conditioning or heat pump compressor burn out. This can be a very difficult problem to diagnose even for experience technicians especially when the problem is intermittent. The most common metering devices are fixed orifice metering devices and thermostatic expansion device (TXV). Fixed orifice metering devices can become clogged with trash or even ice up if moisture is in the system and this can lead to compressor burn out. The same thing can happen with a TXV metering device however the TXV is more complex than the fixed orifice metering device but it too can malfunction and result in compressor burn out. The TXV has moving parts and these moving parts can stick causing the system to experience restrictions. Burned out compressors have been replaced before and two weeks later the technician is back looking at another burned out air conditioner or heat pump compressor because this problem was intermittent and not diagnosed when the new air conditioner or heat compressor was installed. Now everyone is scratching their heads, the air conditioning or heat pump technician looks bad, and the customer is perturbed. It happens and the best thing to do is find the intermittent metering device problem and replace the old burned out compressor.
*Moisture in the refrigeration system *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. Moisture in the refrigeration system will eventually cause compressor burn out and is usually a result of poor installation. The oil in the refrigeration system mixes with moisture and creates an acidic sludge that slowly eats away at the windings on the compressor motor. It is important that the installation technician uses proper installation practices when installing a new air conditioner or heat pump system or that the air conditioner or heat pump technician service technician use the proper methods and procedures when opening the air conditioner or heat pump refrigeration system for any reason. A triple evacuation along with nitrogen purge in many cases will eliminate all moisture and non-condensable gases in the air conditioning or heat pump system. This along with using the proper filter driers will prevent compressor burn-up from moisture. The filter drier should be replaced any time the air conditioner or heat system is opened for any reason.
*Oil loss from refrigerant leaks *can be another reason for air conditioner or heat compressor burn out. This is common as many people do not want to pay to find a refrigerant leak when the cost of filling the air conditioner or heat pump system up with refrigerant is cheaper. Whenever there is a refrigerant leak oil from the system also leaks out through the same hole where the refrigerant is escaping. The proper oil level is necessary for good lubrication and also cooling the compressor. While the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is cooled mainly by the return suction gas the oil still contributes to keeping the air conditioner or heat pump compressor cool by reducing friction in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor. The best advice High Performance HVAC Systems can offer is that you have the technician find and fix the leak. This will cost more than just filling the air conditioner or heat pump system with refrigerant but the long term alternative will cost more. This is especially true for the new R-410A refrigerant systems which operate at higher pressures than the older R-22 systems.
*Compressor short cycling *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This occurs when the unit is turned on and off quickly without giving it proper time to recover, equalize, and cool down. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor pulls a high amp draw on start up which is technically called locked rotor amps. The compressor has to start from a full stop to full blast in less than a second. It also has to overcome the head pressure and if the unit just quit (within the last 3 minutes) the head pressure is still high and equalizing. Starting and stopping and the compressor continuously under these conditions will create a lot of heat and this increased heat level can cause compressor burn out. An air conditioner or heat pump unit with the proper controls that prevent short cycling will prevent compressor burn up under these circumstances. Many modern digital heating and cooling thermostats have built protection for short cycling. The heating and cooling thermostat has a built in delay which prevents the user from turning the air conditioner or heat on and off and on again too quickly.
*Defective compressor *can also be the cause of an air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This is not very common but it does occur. Hopefully if this happens to you the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is still under warranty. Either way, it is important for the air conditioning and heating technician to look at the other issues described here before determining that it was a defective compressor. Other issues to look at in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor system are the capacitor and the proper amount of voltage the compressor is getting. The capacitor and the voltage should fall into plus or minus 10 percent of the rating by the compressor manufacturer. Anything out of this range can cause problems which lead to compressor burn-up or burn-out.
*Lightening strikes *can fry an air conditioner or heat pump compressor and other components in the air conditioner or heat pump system. In this case hopefully your insurance will cover the cost of replacing the air conditioner or heat pump. A large amount of voltage and current passing through an air conditioner compressor which is running can have devastating effects the may damage the system beyond repair.
While compressor burn out is quite common for compressor failures another common problem is compressor lock up. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor is a mechanical and electrical device. It has mechanical parts which are driven by an electric motor. If the mechanical parts lock up or seize up and the electric motor in the compressor does not have the horsepower to overcome the lock up or seizing of the mechanical parts then the compressor is mechanically locked up. There are techniques a good air conditioning and heat pump technician can use to unlock the compressor but approximately 25 percent of compressor lock ups cannot be unlocked. It becomes necessary to replace the air conditioner or heat pump compressor or the whole condenser. The important thing is that you have a regular maintenance schedule for the air conditioner or heat pump system to prevent most problems that can cause compressor burn out, burn up, or mechanical lock up.


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## supertek65

:furious:


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## supertek65

this is some dork from youtube!
this is what he tells the customer!
what do you think?


supertek65 said:


> There may come a day when your air conditioner or heat pump system fails to cool your home or business and you call an air conditioning and heating contractor to fix the problem. The air conditioning and heating HVAC technician arrives and starts the process of troubleshooting the system. About 30 minutes later the air conditioning and heating HVAC technician reports back to you that your compressor is burned-out and it either needs replacing or the HVAC system needs to be replaced. HVAC Compressor burn out is a serious and costly matter. Replacing the system requires a judgment call on your part based on the cost of the burned out HVAC compressor replacement (if the burned out HVAC compressor is still under warranty you may still have to pay for labor to replace the burned out HVAC compressor), the current age of the air conditioning and heating HVAC equipment, and whether you have the money in your budget to replace the HVAC system. Before any of that you'll want to know what happened to cause the HVAC compressor to burn out in the first place. There are many reasons why an air conditioning and heating HVAC compressor can burn up but the primary causes are neglect. Here is a list of possible reasons a HVAC compressor can burn out. Some of these reasons for HVAC compressor burn out are beyond your control but the things that are in your control need to be addressed on a regular schedule.
> 
> *Poor Maintenance* to the HVAC system especially the air conditioning or heat pump condenser. HVAC Compressors don't get compressor burn out because of poor maintenace on the HVAC compressor. Many hermetic HVAC compressors are maintenace free so you need to look at the condenser instead of the HVAC compressor. Over a period of time the air conditioning and heat pump condenser coils can become clogged with dust, dirt, and debris. This restricts air flow through the coils and causes pressures and temperatures to rise inside the air conditioner or heat pump condenser including the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor. Under extreme operating conditions the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor has to work harder to compress and pump the refrigerant through the air conditioner or heat pump system. When the compressor works harder it pulls more amperage which causes it to run hotter than normal. If the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor surprises its normal rated operating temperature things inside the compressor start to break down and eventually over time the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor will fail and the result is HVAC compressor burn out. There are built in protections against compressor overheating but these protections are prone to failure under extreme conditions or may allow the compressor to run at just below the temperature protection level but over time the air conditioning or heat pump HVAC compressor this higher than normal temperature will cause compressor burn out.
> *Restriction in the refrigerant lines *can also cause a compressor to burn out. Compressor burn out can occur as a result of a malfunctioning or clogged metering device or damage to the refrigeration line set. The copper lines that run between the condenser and the evaporator coil can be damaged or crimped which will restrict the flow of refrigerant. This refrigerant flow restriction causes an imbalance in the pressures of the air conditioning or heat pump system which causes the air conditioner or heat pump compressor to work harder. This causes higher compressor operating temperatures and amp draws which leads to burn out especially under extreme operating conditions. A refrigerant line can become damaged when someone steps on or twists one of the copper lines running from the air conditioner or heat pump condenser to the evaporator coil which is usually located in the air handler. The damage may or may not affect the cooling capacity of the air conditioner or heat pump system but it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. There are instances when the installation crews inadvertently crimped the lines upon installation and the problem can remain hidden until the air conditioner or heat pump system has a compressor burn out. A good air conditioning or heat pump technician using thorough air conditioning and heating troubleshooting techniques can resolve the issue and prevent a compressor burn out before it happens.
> *Restricted or malfunctioning metering device *can also cause the air conditioning or heat pump compressor burn out. This can be a very difficult problem to diagnose even for experience technicians especially when the problem is intermittent. The most common metering devices are fixed orifice metering devices and thermostatic expansion device (TXV). Fixed orifice metering devices can become clogged with trash or even ice up if moisture is in the system and this can lead to compressor burn out. The same thing can happen with a TXV metering device however the TXV is more complex than the fixed orifice metering device but it too can malfunction and result in compressor burn out. The TXV has moving parts and these moving parts can stick causing the system to experience restrictions. Burned out compressors have been replaced before and two weeks later the technician is back looking at another burned out air conditioner or heat pump compressor because this problem was intermittent and not diagnosed when the new air conditioner or heat compressor was installed. Now everyone is scratching their heads, the air conditioning or heat pump technician looks bad, and the customer is perturbed. It happens and the best thing to do is find the intermittent metering device problem and replace the old burned out compressor.
> *Moisture in the refrigeration system *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. Moisture in the refrigeration system will eventually cause compressor burn out and is usually a result of poor installation. The oil in the refrigeration system mixes with moisture and creates an acidic sludge that slowly eats away at the windings on the compressor motor. It is important that the installation technician uses proper installation practices when installing a new air conditioner or heat pump system or that the air conditioner or heat pump technician service technician use the proper methods and procedures when opening the air conditioner or heat pump refrigeration system for any reason. A triple evacuation along with nitrogen purge in many cases will eliminate all moisture and non-condensable gases in the air conditioning or heat pump system. This along with using the proper filter driers will prevent compressor burn-up from moisture. The filter drier should be replaced any time the air conditioner or heat system is opened for any reason.
> *Oil loss from refrigerant leaks *can be another reason for air conditioner or heat compressor burn out. This is common as many people do not want to pay to find a refrigerant leak when the cost of filling the air conditioner or heat pump system up with refrigerant is cheaper. Whenever there is a refrigerant leak oil from the system also leaks out through the same hole where the refrigerant is escaping. The proper oil level is necessary for good lubrication and also cooling the compressor. While the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is cooled mainly by the return suction gas the oil still contributes to keeping the air conditioner or heat pump compressor cool by reducing friction in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor. The best advice High Performance HVAC Systems can offer is that you have the technician find and fix the leak. This will cost more than just filling the air conditioner or heat pump system with refrigerant but the long term alternative will cost more. This is especially true for the new R-410A refrigerant systems which operate at higher pressures than the older R-22 systems.
> *Compressor short cycling *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This occurs when the unit is turned on and off quickly without giving it proper time to recover, equalize, and cool down. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor pulls a high amp draw on start up which is technically called locked rotor amps. The compressor has to start from a full stop to full blast in less than a second. It also has to overcome the head pressure and if the unit just quit (within the last 3 minutes) the head pressure is still high and equalizing. Starting and stopping and the compressor continuously under these conditions will create a lot of heat and this increased heat level can cause compressor burn out. An air conditioner or heat pump unit with the proper controls that prevent short cycling will prevent compressor burn up under these circumstances. Many modern digital heating and cooling thermostats have built protection for short cycling. The heating and cooling thermostat has a built in delay which prevents the user from turning the air conditioner or heat on and off and on again too quickly.
> *Defective compressor *can also be the cause of an air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This is not very common but it does occur. Hopefully if this happens to you the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is still under warranty. Either way, it is important for the air conditioning and heating technician to look at the other issues described here before determining that it was a defective compressor. Other issues to look at in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor system are the capacitor and the proper amount of voltage the compressor is getting. The capacitor and the voltage should fall into plus or minus 10 percent of the rating by the compressor manufacturer. Anything out of this range can cause problems which lead to compressor burn-up or burn-out.
> *Lightening strikes *can fry an air conditioner or heat pump compressor and other components in the air conditioner or heat pump system. In this case hopefully your insurance will cover the cost of replacing the air conditioner or heat pump. A large amount of voltage and current passing through an air conditioner compressor which is running can have devastating effects the may damage the system beyond repair.
> While compressor burn out is quite common for compressor failures another common problem is compressor lock up. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor is a mechanical and electrical device. It has mechanical parts which are driven by an electric motor. If the mechanical parts lock up or seize up and the electric motor in the compressor does not have the horsepower to overcome the lock up or seizing of the mechanical parts then the compressor is mechanically locked up. There are techniques a good air conditioning and heat pump technician can use to unlock the compressor but approximately 25 percent of compressor lock ups cannot be unlocked. It becomes necessary to replace the air conditioner or heat pump compressor or the whole condenser. The important thing is that you have a regular maintenance schedule for the air conditioner or heat pump system to prevent most problems that can cause compressor burn out, burn up, or mechanical lock up.


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## supertek65

i thought the only way a compressor could burn up is if you hit it with your torch!:furious:



supertek65 said:


> There may come a day when your air conditioner or heat pump system fails to cool your home or business and you call an air conditioning and heating contractor to fix the problem. The air conditioning and heating HVAC technician arrives and starts the process of troubleshooting the system. About 30 minutes later the air conditioning and heating HVAC technician reports back to you that your compressor is burned-out and it either needs replacing or the HVAC system needs to be replaced. HVAC Compressor burn out is a serious and costly matter. Replacing the system requires a judgment call on your part based on the cost of the burned out HVAC compressor replacement (if the burned out HVAC compressor is still under warranty you may still have to pay for labor to replace the burned out HVAC compressor), the current age of the air conditioning and heating HVAC equipment, and whether you have the money in your budget to replace the HVAC system. Before any of that you'll want to know what happened to cause the HVAC compressor to burn out in the first place. :furious::furious:There are many reasons why an air conditioning and heating HVAC compressor can burn up :furious::furious:but the primary causes are neglect. Here is a list of possible reasons a HVAC compressor can burn out. Some of these reasons for HVAC compressor burn out are beyond your control but the things that are in your control need to be addressed on a regular schedule.
> 
> *Poor Maintenance* to the HVAC system especially the air conditioning or heat pump condenser. HVAC Compressors don't get compressor burn out because of poor maintenace on the HVAC compressor. Many hermetic HVAC compressors are maintenace free so you need to look at the condenser instead of the HVAC compressor. Over a period of time the air conditioning and heat pump condenser coils can become clogged with dust, dirt, and debris. This restricts air flow through the coils and causes pressures and temperatures to rise inside the air conditioner or heat pump condenser including the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor. Under extreme operating conditions the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor has to work harder to compress and pump the refrigerant through the air conditioner or heat pump system. When the compressor works harder it pulls more amperage which causes it to run hotter than normal. If the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor surprises its normal rated operating temperature things inside the compressor start to break down and eventually over time the air conditioner or heat pump HVAC compressor will fail and the result is HVAC compressor burn out. There are built in protections against compressor overheating but these protections are prone to failure under extreme conditions or may allow the compressor to run at just below the temperature protection level but over time the air conditioning or heat pump HVAC compressor this higher than normal temperature will cause compressor burn out.
> *Restriction in the refrigerant lines *can also cause a compressor to burn out. Compressor burn out can occur as a result of a malfunctioning or clogged metering device or damage to the refrigeration line set. The copper lines that run between the condenser and the evaporator coil can be damaged or crimped which will restrict the flow of refrigerant. This refrigerant flow restriction causes an imbalance in the pressures of the air conditioning or heat pump system which causes the air conditioner or heat pump compressor to work harder. This causes higher compressor operating temperatures and amp draws which leads to burn out especially under extreme operating conditions. A refrigerant line can become damaged when someone steps on or twists one of the copper lines running from the air conditioner or heat pump condenser to the evaporator coil which is usually located in the air handler. The damage may or may not affect the cooling capacity of the air conditioner or heat pump system but it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. There are instances when the installation crews inadvertently crimped the lines upon installation and the problem can remain hidden until the air conditioner or heat pump system has a compressor burn out. A good air conditioning or heat pump technician using thorough air conditioning and heating troubleshooting techniques can resolve the issue and prevent a compressor burn out before it happens.
> *Restricted or malfunctioning metering device *can also cause the air conditioning or heat pump compressor burn out. This can be a very difficult problem to diagnose even for experience technicians especially when the problem is intermittent. The most common metering devices are fixed orifice metering devices and thermostatic expansion device (TXV). Fixed orifice metering devices can become clogged with trash or even ice up if moisture is in the system and this can lead to compressor burn out. The same thing can happen with a TXV metering device however the TXV is more complex than the fixed orifice metering device but it too can malfunction and result in compressor burn out. The TXV has moving parts and these moving parts can stick causing the system to experience restrictions. Burned out compressors have been replaced before and two weeks later the technician is back looking at another burned out air conditioner or heat pump compressor because this problem was intermittent and not diagnosed when the new air conditioner or heat compressor was installed. Now everyone is scratching their heads, the air conditioning or heat pump technician looks bad, and the customer is perturbed. It happens and the best thing to do is find the intermittent metering device problem and replace the old burned out compressor.
> *Moisture in the refrigeration system *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. Moisture in the refrigeration system will eventually cause compressor burn out and is usually a result of poor installation. The oil in the refrigeration system mixes with moisture and creates an acidic sludge that slowly eats away at the windings on the compressor motor. It is important that the installation technician uses proper installation practices when installing a new air conditioner or heat pump system or that the air conditioner or heat pump technician service technician use the proper methods and procedures when opening the air conditioner or heat pump refrigeration system for any reason. A triple evacuation along with nitrogen purge in many cases will eliminate all moisture and non-condensable gases in the air conditioning or heat pump system. This along with using the proper filter driers will prevent compressor burn-up from moisture. The filter drier should be replaced any time the air conditioner or heat system is opened for any reason.
> *Oil loss from refrigerant leaks *can be another reason for air conditioner or heat compressor burn out. This is common as many people do not want to pay to find a refrigerant leak when the cost of filling the air conditioner or heat pump system up with refrigerant is cheaper. Whenever there is a refrigerant leak oil from the system also leaks out through the same hole where the refrigerant is escaping. The proper oil level is necessary for good lubrication and also cooling the compressor. While the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is cooled mainly by the return suction gas the oil still contributes to keeping the air conditioner or heat pump compressor cool by reducing friction in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor. The best advice High Performance HVAC Systems can offer is that you have the technician find and fix the leak. This will cost more than just filling the air conditioner or heat pump system with refrigerant but the long term alternative will cost more. This is especially true for the new R-410A refrigerant systems which operate at higher pressures than the older R-22 systems.
> *Compressor short cycling *can also cause air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This occurs when the unit is turned on and off quickly without giving it proper time to recover, equalize, and cool down. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor pulls a high amp draw on start up which is technically called locked rotor amps. The compressor has to start from a full stop to full blast in less than a second. It also has to overcome the head pressure and if the unit just quit (within the last 3 minutes) the head pressure is still high and equalizing. Starting and stopping and the compressor continuously under these conditions will create a lot of heat and this increased heat level can cause compressor burn out. An air conditioner or heat pump unit with the proper controls that prevent short cycling will prevent compressor burn up under these circumstances. Many modern digital heating and cooling thermostats have built protection for short cycling. The heating and cooling thermostat has a built in delay which prevents the user from turning the air conditioner or heat on and off and on again too quickly.
> *Defective compressor *can also be the cause of an air conditioner or heat pump compressor burn out. This is not very common but it does occur. Hopefully if this happens to you the air conditioner or heat pump compressor is still under warranty. Either way, it is important for the air conditioning and heating technician to look at the other issues described here before determining that it was a defective compressor. Other issues to look at in the air conditioner or heat pump compressor system are the capacitor and the proper amount of voltage the compressor is getting. The capacitor and the voltage should fall into plus or minus 10 percent of the rating by the compressor manufacturer. Anything out of this range can cause problems which lead to compressor burn-up or burn-out.
> *Lightening strikes *can fry an air conditioner or heat pump compressor and other components in the air conditioner or heat pump system. In this case hopefully your insurance will cover the cost of replacing the air conditioner or heat pump. A large amount of voltage and current passing through an air conditioner compressor which is running can have devastating effects the may damage the system beyond repair.
> While compressor burn out is quite common for compressor failures another common problem is compressor lock up. An air conditioner or heat pump compressor is a mechanical and electrical device. It has mechanical parts which are driven by an electric motor. If the mechanical parts lock up or seize up and the electric motor in the compressor does not have the horsepower to overcome the lock up or seizing of the mechanical parts then the compressor is mechanically locked up. There are techniques a good air conditioning and heat pump technician can use to unlock the compressor but approximately 25 percent of compressor lock ups cannot be unlocked. It becomes necessary to replace the air conditioner or heat pump compressor or the whole condenser. The important thing is that you have a regular maintenance schedule for the air conditioner or heat pump system to prevent most problems that can cause compressor burn out, burn up, or mechanical lock up.


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## supertek65

i have not clicked on his video yet but I am SURE it is great!

http://www.high-performance-hvac.co...nditioner-compressor-burn-out/menu-id-82.html


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## TH3 M0L3

It really does sicken me to think there are people out there who think they know everything about the principles of refrigeration.

I don't care what anybody tells you, there are only TWO things that are the root cause of compressor burn out on a hermetic or semi hermetic motor.

1. High suction temperatures
2. Moisture in the system

Manufacturing defects are only responsible for less the 1/2 % of all compressor failures.

Don't be fooled to think that moisture is the only cause for the formation of acid in a system. Excessively high temps result in the chemical decomposition of the refrigerant. When this happens, acid forms in the system and results in the burn out.

A compressor burn out can be as a result of a more sinister problem so dont just clean the system up, replace the compressor and think the problem is solved. If you dont find out why the comp burned out, you can be sure you'll be back doing the job again!


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## hvaclover

I would ask from what source you got the stat that OEM failures are only 1/2%?

With the incredible number of different OEM comps in use today the quality
is hardly uniform throughout the entire industry to allow your statement to be accurate.


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## supertek65

i am trying to figure out if you are joking or kidding, or actually being serious???

high SUCTION temperatures?????

so a 70 degree sst will destroy motor windings rated at 105 degrees celsius>??

what molecular component is it that breaks down and forms the acid from an hfc hydrflourocarbon refrigerant is it the hydrogen,florine or the carbon?

obviously there would be no h20?



TH3 M0L3 said:


> It really does sicken me to think there are people out there who think they know everything about the principles of refrigeration.
> 
> I don't care what anybody tells you, there are only TWO things that are the root cause of compressor burn out on a hermetic or semi hermetic motor.
> 
> 1. High suction temperatures
> 2. Moisture in the system
> 
> Manufacturing defects are only responsible for less the 1/2 % of all compressor failures.
> 
> Don't be fooled to think that moisture is the only cause for the formation of acid in a system. Excessively high temps result in the chemical decomposition of the refrigerant. When this happens, acid forms in the system and results in the burn out.
> 
> A compressor burn out can be as a result of a more sinister problem so dont just clean the system up, replace the compressor and think the problem is solved. If you dont find out why the comp burned out, you can be sure you'll be back doing the job again!


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## TH3 M0L3

supertek65 said:


> i am trying to figure out if you are joking or kidding, or actually being serious???


Serious:laughing:



supertek65 said:


> high SUCTION temperatures?????
> 
> so a 70 degree sst will destroy motor windings rated at 105 degrees celsius>??


Yes, the motor windings might be rated at 105 deg, but the compressor is not designed to work at this temperature. This is the temp that the windings can tolerate, but prolonged exposure to these temps is bad for the comp.



supertek65 said:


> what molecular component is it that breaks down and forms the acid from an hfc hydrflourocarbon refrigerant is it the hydrogen,florine or the carbon?
> 
> obviously there would be no h20?


The components to form the acid is the hydro-fluorine, it forms Hydrofluoric acid...

The carbon will carbonise on the metal components of the compressor at high temp leaving the hydro-fluorine to become unstable. I agree that the hydrofluoric acid is held in h2o in solution, but it is only in solution in the h20. It does not need the h20 to form...
:001_tongue:


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## hvaclover

For an engineer you write very simplistically when you describe contamination formation.

Plus i have to take issue with the accuracy of some the points you touched on.

I am finding it difficult to take you seriously. My son is an electrical engineer
and he could have phrased your comments much better and more correctly and he only has an entry level technician's comprehension of of refrigeration theory.


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## Swampfox

TH3 M0L3 said:


> It really does sicken me to think there are people out there who think they know everything about the principles of refrigeration.


You should probably avoid the internet then, you'll run into a lot of them


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## TH3 M0L3

hvaclover said:


> I would ask from what source you got the stat that OEM failures are only 1/2%?
> 
> With the incredible number of different OEM comps in use today the quality
> is hardly uniform throughout the entire industry to allow your statement to be accurate.


I am quoting a figure that I got from the F-Gas certification I just acquired.
I am not sure of your locality, but as of 4 July 2011 here in the UK it will be illegal to ply our trade without the F-Gas certificate.

Logic states that Warranty claims for comps installed on products in a factory environment such as chillers/ ac units/ fridge packs etc, are far lower than compressors sent directly to the end user for replacement.

The standard of manufacturing compressors is higher than you'd think. The technology available today increases the quality of the parts produced, reducing their failure rate.
Do you really think the manufacturers would sell inferior products? Nobody would buy their stuff.
:thumbsup:


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## TH3 M0L3

hvaclover said:


> For an engineer you write very simplistically when you describe contamination formation.
> 
> Plus i have to take issue with the accuracy of some the points you touched on.
> 
> I am finding it difficult to take you seriously. My son is an electrical engineer
> and he could have phrased your comments much better and more correctly and he only has an entry level technician's comprehension of of refrigeration theory.


Well get your son to comment then....

If you want to get personal mate, you're looking in the wrong place!
I have come on here in good spirit and don't need idiots such as yourself to give me grief. 

If you think you or your son know it all, share a bit of your knowledge with those you deem less intelligent than you and your ilk. 
Or, and I think this is a more accurate statement, you know nothing and resort to personally insulting others by picking holes in their theories.

I suspect you only patrol these forums because you can hide behind your anonymity. Why not challenge yourself, and prove to us that you have got what it takes by going to a real refrigeration forum such as refrigeration-engineer dot com. At least their people are not as arrogant as you!

I guarantee you that you, oh and lest I forget your son, will be out of your depth!!! 

Good luck!


edit:

If I was trying to write a thesis on refrigeration contamination I would not be publishing it here. This forum not only attracts qualified engineers, but people who know nothing or very little of our trade. If I were to get over-technical I'd bore half the people and scare them away. 

Time and a place for everything mate!


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## TH3 M0L3

Swampfox said:


> You should probably avoid the internet then, you'll run into a lot of them


See my last post!:laughing:


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## beenthere

Is the system still working?


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## hvaclover

TH3 M0L3 said:


> Well get your son to comment then....
> 
> If you want to get personal mate, you're looking in the wrong place!
> I have come on here in good spirit and don't need idiots such as yourself to give me grief.
> 
> If you think you or your son know it all, share a bit of your knowledge with those you deem less intelligent than you and your ilk.
> Or, and I think this is a more accurate statement, you know nothing and resort to personally insulting others by picking holes in their theories.
> 
> I suspect you only patrol these forums because you can hide behind your anonymity. Why not challenge yourself, and prove to us that you have got what it takes by going to a real refrigeration forum such as refrigeration-engineer dot com. At least their people are not as arrogant as you!
> 
> I guarantee you that you, oh and lest I forget your son, will be out of your depth!!!
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> edit:
> 
> If I was trying to write a thesis on refrigeration contamination I would not be publishing it here. This forum not only attracts qualified engineers, but people who know nothing or very little of our trade. If I were to get over-technical I'd bore half the people and scare them away.
> 
> Time and a place for everything mate!


Watch out! I hear my avatar is a well known British Gentelman and Knighted by Her Majesty.

You might wake up one late evening to find the dark character he played looking for a mid-night snack:laughing:.

We welcome our British Cousins enthusiastically. Just giving you a hard time.
No harm no foul intended.:thumbsup:

Long live Chris Lee!!!


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## supertek65

have you by chance ever heard of Carrier?



TH3 M0L3 said:


> I am quoting a figure that I got from the F-Gas certification I just acquired.
> I am not sure of your locality, but as of 4 July 2011 here in the UK it will be illegal to ply our trade without the F-Gas certificate.
> 
> Logic states that Warranty claims for comps installed on products in a factory environment such as chillers/ ac units/ fridge packs etc, are far lower than compressors sent directly to the end user for replacement.
> 
> The standard of manufacturing compressors is higher than you'd think. The technology available today increases the quality of the parts produced, reducing their failure rate.
> Do you really think the manufacturers would sell inferior products? Nobody would buy their stuff.
> :thumbsup:


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## hvaclover

supertek65 said:


> have you by chance ever heard of Carrier?



uuuhhhhh....some have been doing it for years.

Ever hear of Janitrol?


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## TH3 M0L3

supertek65 said:


> have you by chance ever heard of Carrier?


Their equipment, and I can only talk about their chillers, is generally ok. It is the after sales service, and technical support dept that lack what it takes.

The last time I called technical I was told the dept was dissolved, and all the tech ,manuals are available to download from their website. If the problem still could not be sorted then we'd have to place a service call and be charged for it.

There is not a lot we can't do to them ourselves, but when it comes to the software then they have us by the short and curlys....

All I wanted was for them to confirm the password to get into the config menu!


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## TH3 M0L3

hvaclover said:


> Watch out! I hear my avatar is a well known British Gentelman and Knighted by Her Majesty.
> 
> You might wake up one late evening to find the dark character he played looking for a mid-night snack:laughing:.
> 
> We welcome our British Cousins enthusiastically. Just giving you a hard time.
> No harm no foul intended.:thumbsup:
> 
> Long live Chris Lee!!!


I'll accept your apology and be sure to lock my door tonight!
:gunsmilie:


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