# cronic refrigerant loss!



## scooter

Hey guys, I dont see alot of activity here?
How about this.
Since Aug 07 we have installed several air conditioners and heat pumps that seem to loose all of their refrigerant every time the temp drops below zero deg F.
Only happening on Amana/Goodman units. 
Distributer says they are kinda, pretty, sorta, certian that the problem is with the service valves, however we are also apperantly the only dealer to be having this problem. (good for the self esteem)
Tried all the standard leak detection and even some unconventional and no leaks show up. 
My thought is that the valves are cast and under extreme cold situations the refrigerant leaks right through the cast body of the valve. 
Well, any body hear of anything like this befor?
Scooter


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## hvaclover

Ain't heard nothing about it.


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## scooter

update
finally heard from Amana/Goodman "Hey guys, We seem to be experiencing some refrigerant loss issues with units in climates where the temp gets below freezing"
they think it is in the service valves but no official word yet. 
I'll post the results when we get a solution or bulletin. 
Meanwhile if you find a new Amana/Goodman condensing unit out of juice dont look to hard for the leak.
This will only show up at the first start up of the year. 
if you find one empty, charge it up and it will last the summer and not leak again until the temp drops below zero. 
Scooter


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## hvaclover

Scooter, hello.

I get what you mean. Yes it is possible for a system to loose gas from THE VALVE STEM CAPS. This would be due to loose tolerances on the threads which worsen as the ODT decreases. The gas will leech up past the o rings (if so constructed) or the thread of systems service valves and the service valve caps valve.

I thought you meant the as gas was leaking out thru the brass body of the service valves.


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## beenthere

Goodman has been having a problem with the service valves they are/were using.


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## jstjohnz

scooter said:


> Hey guys, I dont see alot of activity here?
> How about this.
> Since Aug 07 we have installed several air conditioners and heat pumps that seem to loose all of their refrigerant every time the temp drops below zero deg F.
> Only happening on Amana/Goodman units.
> Distributer says they are kinda, pretty, sorta, certian that the problem is with the service valves, however we are also apperantly the only dealer to be having this problem. (good for the self esteem)
> Tried all the standard leak detection and even some unconventional and no leaks show up.
> My thought is that the valves are cast and under extreme cold situations the refrigerant leaks right through the cast body of the valve.
> Well, any body hear of anything like this befor?
> Scooter


Goodman has a service bulletin out on this. The problem happens at low temps when the service valves are opened too far. Goodman recommends stopping before the valve stem contacts the retainer.


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## mo-flo

a little bit of pipe dope w/teflon on those threads won't hurt anything either....


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## RoBoTeq

What irks me is that when a contractor brings this up to the support people at Goodman in Houston, they are berated for not reading the instructions that tell you to only open the valves to within a sixteenth of an inch of backseated. Well, how the heck are you supposed to know when to stop unless you hit resistance? Just a stupid way to deal with a known issue if you ask me.

Then again, if the service valve caps are properly installed, one sixth of a turn past tight, the leak will be confined withing the valve and won't be a problem as far as lost refrigerant.

Nordyne and other brands of equipment also use those valves and have the same issues.


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## hvaclover

RoBoTeq said:


> What irks me is that when a contractor brings this up to the support people at Goodman in Houston, they are berated for not reading the instructions that tell you to only open the valves to within a sixteenth of an inch of backseated. Well, how the heck are you supposed to know when to stop unless you hit resistance? Just a stupid way to deal with a known issue if you ask me.
> 
> Then again, if the service valve caps are properly installed, one sixth of a turn past tight, the leak will be confined withing the valve and won't be a problem as far as lost refrigerant.
> 
> Nordyne and other brands of equipment also use those valves and have the same issues.


Regretfully Nordyne and Goodman do not use the same quality valves they used to. That's part of the prob. The other on was the old model valves would not warp if over heated a bit.

I found that I have to heat sink the new style valves even more an i still got a jammed LL valve that would not open.

These are the Parker valves. I have seen it happen to four other contractors at various times I was at the wholesaler.


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## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> Regretfully Nordyne and Goodman do not use the same quality valves they used to. That's part of the prob. The other on was the old model valves would not warp if over heated a bit.
> 
> I found that I have to heat sink the new style valves even more an i still got a jammed LL valve that would not open.
> 
> These are the Parker valves. I have seen it happen to four other contractors at various times I was at the wholesaler.


I agree. Why these manufacturers keep making better equipment only to screw the pooch with lower quality parts is beyond me. It just seems that if a brand has less issues, it continues to sell better. My Goodman heat pump has some cheapo Chinese valves on it. You best believe I wrapped those valves before brazing.


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## hvaclover

RoBoTeq said:


> I agree. Why these manufacturers keep making better equipment only to screw the pooch with lower quality parts is beyond me. It just seems that if a brand has less issues, it continues to sell better. My Goodman heat pump has some cheapo Chinese valves on it. You best believe I wrapped those valves before brazing.



Dig it.

Ok I am a self confessed Nordyne Head with Goodman/Amana as my second.

Nordyne stopped putting full-flow- quarter turn suction valves. i really liked them.

Hey Robin, what micron gauge you like? Assuming you use one i mean.


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## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> Dig it.
> 
> Ok I am a self confessed Nordyne Head with Goodman/Amana as my second.
> 
> Nordyne stopped putting full-flow- quarter turn suction valves. i really liked them.
> 
> Hey Robin, what micron gauge you like? Assuming you use one i mean.


 I would never consider even putting a vacuum pump on a system if I were not using a micron gauge to know what is going on. 

I believe my old micron gauge is an ICP. I was using micron gauges when they were all analog. Since I don't do very much field work any longer, I don't keep up on the nifty toys that are available.


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## hvaclover

RoBoTeq said:


> I would never consider even putting a vacuum pump on a system if I were not using a micron gauge to know what is going on.
> 
> I believe my old micron gauge is an ICP. I was using micron gauges when they were all analog. Since I don't do very much field work any longer, I don't keep up on the nifty toys that are available.



Had an old Robinaire vacuum tube analog. It gave up the host .

Still trying to make up my mind what is decent for me. I'll make up my mind sometime.


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## hvactech

jstjohnz said:


> Goodman has a service bulletin out on this. The problem happens at low temps when the service valves are opened too far. Goodman recommends stopping before the valve stem contacts the retainer.


Can you tell me where i can get a copy of the service bulletin? We just came across a new Goodman unit installed last year that has lost all its charge and no leak could be detected. Now I have to explain to the homeowner why her new a/c unit needs to be re-charged. And thanks for this thread, I may have thought someone was huffing the customers refrigerant, LOL


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## RoBoTeq

hvactech said:


> Can you tell me where i can get a copy of the service bulletin? We just came across a new Goodman unit installed last year that has lost all its charge and no leak could be detected. Now I have to explain to the homeowner why her new a/c unit needs to be re-charged. And thanks for this thread, I may have thought someone was huffing the customers refrigerant, LOL


Let her continue to think it is refrigerant huffers and charge her for an anti huffing device. If she's cute, tell her you have it on good authourity her husband or boyfriend is the huffer and you are their for her in her time of grief and despair.


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## Craig

New goodman 4 ton unit with no charge


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## Craig

New goodman 4 ton unit with no charge
View attachment 101
View attachment 102


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## Craig

It looks like A poor design I think you're going to see a lot of these changes my mind about GoodmanI had to re-solder the pipe that goes into the manifold and doesn't look like they're going to reimburse me for this repair this is going on six weeks for my warranty claim


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## kevin，lee

你好，很荣幸加入


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## kevin，lee

hellow


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## heatingrepairchicago

those got to be some really cheap service valves. I would teflon them up and make sure all gaskets and etc are there.


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