# Is HVAC headed to DIY?



## RoBoTeq

I see equipment that doesn't require the skills to troubleshoot controls further then counting how many times a light blinks, systems that don't require technical charging techniques and a refrigerant that does not technically require a cfc certification because it is not a cfc. And HVAC company owners think these are good things because now they don't need to worry as much as to how skilled their techs are.

DUH! If an unskilled tech can do it, a skillful DIYer won't have any trouble.

Just how easy should our industry make HVAC equipment to install and is that the real intent of the manufacturers building equipment that requires less technical skills?


----------



## milk man

I don't think so. There will still be people that refuse to work on their own stuff.

A talented DIYer years ago could still repair their machine better than a marginally skilled trades man. A lot of old farmers could replace a thermocouple just as well as a skilled trades man. Although a tradesman might know why it failed the farmer's guess was just as good. 

So a DIYer may guess the ignitor failed and replace it, but may not figure out the drift of snow is what keeping the pressure switch from closing.


----------



## beenthere

DIY has been around longer then any of us have been alive.

Before 92, there was no CFC cert to buy refrigerant.

So we're not headed toward DIY. Just making everything easier for everyone.
Same amount of work(percentage wise) will be done by DIYers as before.
It will just be more noticable because of the internet providing a means of sharing the how to knowledge.


----------



## DuMass

Believe me when I say I’m not a big fan of government regulation, but I personally feel that EPA 608 Universal certification and recovery equipment registration and verification should also be required for all HFC purchases, just as with CFC’s and HCFC’s, especially with the known HFC green house gas status and Global Warming Potential. 
I’m really surprised that it isn’t with all of the current “Go Green” and “Save the Planet” talk being thrown around these days.
As of right now, any tard can purchase small cans and even 24LB cylinders of HFC’s in person or online with no real accountability and yet, according to the EPA, I am still required to recover it.
This might also have the added benefit of helping further reduce the instances of untrained DIY tampering with systems.

JM2cents


----------



## Yuri

You need a special license to buy freon in Canada and NO DIYer can get it legally. I believe the manufacturers are making the units somewhat easier to troubleshoot so they get less returned parts under warranty that are perfectly fine. Lennox is very pro-active about that and it saves them $$ in the long run. DIYers will never understand draft issues etc as you need real life experience to understand how combustion and venting REALLY work.


----------



## JohnH1

I dont see it getting any simpler. even with diog lights they just give you a direction to start looking not what is wrong with the unit. These higher end systems definetly take a skilled person to set up correctly, or repaire. As Yuri says especially with draft and combustion.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Well good. All of these answers make me feel better. I have no problem being wrong as long as it benefits my needs.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> You need a special license to buy freon in Canada and NO DIYer can get it legally. I believe the manufacturers are making the units somewhat easier to troubleshoot so they get less returned parts under warranty that are perfectly fine. Lennox is very pro-active about that and it saves them $$ in the long run. DIYers will never understand draft issues etc as you need real life experience to understand how combustion and venting REALLY work.


Freon is a trade name for DuPont refrigerants, so let's just use the generic term refrigerant so we cover all brands.

Is R134a and R410a regulated in Canada the same as R22?


----------



## Yuri

All refrigerants that have a ozone depleting potential are regulated. Not sure about ammonia but it is a specialty field of guys anyway and they have placards on their vehicles same as welders/welding gases.


----------



## henny

All a manufacturer has to do is provide precharged sealed linesets and air handler coils. (just like they do with condensers). They could use self piercing connections.

Now "joe six pack" homeowner could buy a split system at Home Crapo or Lowes just like they do with water heaters.

Hook up the electrical and connect self piercing pre-charged lines and the homeowner doesn't even have to touch/adjust refrigerants.

DIY has permeated every other aspect of home ownership.


----------



## beenthere

Over the years. I think almost all manufacturers did that at one time or another.

Coleman still does it on the units designed for MH installation.
But those units could be used for regular homes.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Personally, I think the DIY HVAC packages are going to hit the big box stores within the next year. I also predict that within 2 years of DIYers figuring out ways to mess up the installs and more so the applications, that the manufacturer's will once again turn to professional installations for their products.


----------



## Yuri

Would be kind of hard to make a SAFE quick connect fitting for R410 as the high side pressure is 350# and higher. Huge liability issues if Joe DIY blows that O ring and his face off.


----------



## JohnH1

Yuri said:


> Would be kind of hard to make a SAFE quick connect fitting for R410 as the high side pressure is 350# and higher. Huge liability issues if Joe DIY blows that O ring and his face off.


*Ouch!*


----------



## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> Would be kind of hard to make a SAFE quick connect fitting for R410 as the high side pressure is 350# and higher. Huge liability issues if Joe DIY blows that O ring and his face off.


The static pressure of R410a, even at 273.5lbs on a 90 degree day, is not much more of an issue then is the 168.4lbs for R22 under the same conditions. Overcoming the slight differences in pressure between R22 and R410a is not going to be an issue.


----------



## Yuri

But the operating head pressure is 325-375 or higher. To make a quick connect fitting safe enough to hold that pressure and idiot proof is not easy. Joe DIY may have his buddies gauges on and decide to fire er up with his noggin where it shouldn't be and maim himself. Have to build for the worst case scenario and add a safety margin above that.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> But the operating head pressure is 325-375 or higher. To make a quick connect fitting safe enough to hold that pressure and idiot proof is not easy. Joe DIY may have his buddies gauges on and decide to fire er up with his noggin where it shouldn't be and maim himself. Have to build for the worst case scenario and add a safety margin above that.


What is your source of information that there is a problem in making a quick connect fitting safe or not for R410a?


----------



## beenthere

Lots of Coleman's on MHs end up with grassed clogged condensers. And run 350 head. And those quick connects don't blow.

Any quick connect they make for a R410A system. Will have been tested.


Its not possible, to make everything fool proof.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Its not possible, to make everything fool proof.


Thank goodness for that or we'd all be out of work.


----------



## Yuri

I was thinking of the potential lawsuits and how overengineered/overlabelled everything is today. All started with the fool who sued McDs for the coffee spill on their lap and McDs not warning them the coffee was hot. Look at all the explosion proof crap a gas water heater has to have now and the $200 increase in price we have to sell it for. Some idiot probably burned his face with a rolled up newspaper lighting the pilot light and sued GSW etc. Pretty soon your kitchen knife will have a label "DO NOT USE INTERNALLY".:gun_bandana:


----------



## DuMass

Some of the problems I can see though, is that even with quick connect fittings, the DIY’er would probably still have to properly evacuate the line set and evaporator coil, especially when POE is involved. Also, what about things like extending line sets and adjusting charge or properly coiling excess line in short runs to prevent oil return problems? 
Any manufacturer that sells equipment for DIY installation is going to have to contend with at least these issues, which will likely lead to problems and premature failure of their product, as well as a rash of warranty claims. This most likely would result in many unhappy customers and damage their brand similar to the current reputation of General Motor’s products. 
I suppose a larger factory installed LL dryer could help pick up some of the moisture from improper evacuation, but what about the air trapped in the system? I guess onboard diagnostics could be used to verify SC and SH though. :001_unsure:


----------



## beenthere

No need to vacuum with quick connect fittings.
The line sets are precharged. So no adding extra charge either. 

When they were used. You could get extension lines(atlest for one brand, just can't remember who it was).
Coiling is no more a problem for a DIYer, then some of the "pros?" that would also be installing those same systems.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Yuri said:


> I was thinking of the potential lawsuits and how overengineered/overlabelled everything is today. All started with the fool who sued McDs for the coffee spill on their lap and McDs not warning them the coffee was hot. Look at all the explosion proof crap a gas water heater has to have now and the $200 increase in price we have to sell it for. Some idiot probably burned his face with a rolled up newspaper lighting the pilot light and sued GSW etc. Pretty soon your kitchen knife will have a label "DO NOT USE INTERNALLY".:gun_bandana:


 I'm not sure I am understanding the relavance of this post, but the hot McDonald's coffee incident was no where near the beggining of lawsuits for unsafe products. Let them keep labeling the crap out of products. Those labels are putting people to work:yes:


----------



## RoBoTeq

DuMass said:


> Some of the problems I can see though, is that even with quick connect fittings, the DIY’er would probably still have to properly evacuate the line set and evaporator coil, especially when POE is involved. Also, what about things like extending line sets and adjusting charge or properly coiling excess line in short runs to prevent oil return problems?
> Any manufacturer that sells equipment for DIY installation is going to have to contend with at least these issues, which will likely lead to problems and premature failure of their product, as well as a rash of warranty claims. This most likely would result in many unhappy customers and damage their brand similar to the current reputation of General Motor’s products.
> I suppose a larger factory installed LL dryer could help pick up some of the moisture from improper evacuation, but what about the air trapped in the system? I guess onboard diagnostics could be used to verify SC and SH though. :001_unsure:


Manufacturer's will not be selling to the public any more then any manufacture sells to the public now. I am sure that we have the technology to manufacture more flexible refrigerant hoses such as are used in the automotive cooling systems.

I can see the big box stores renting vacuum pumps with quick connect locking fittings. Some equipment manufacturers have already produced sytems that are self charging. So, with the install of an accumulator or charge compensator, no refrigerant will ever have to be added to or leave a system and it won't even be necessary to put gauges on a system.

The last thing we should be doing is getting all cocky over how difficult it would be for easier to install DIY HVAC systems to be manufactured.


----------



## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> I'm not sure I am understanding the relavance of this post, but the hot McDonald's coffee incident was no where near the beggining of lawsuits for unsafe products.


The funny thing is how much press the lawsuit got. And how well they left everyone know she won.

But, how little coverage it got. When McDonalds and won. They didn't print it as front page news anymore.

Nope, she never got her 2 million.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> The funny thing is how much press the lawsuit got. And how well they left everyone know she won.
> 
> But, how little coverage it got. When McDonalds and won. They didn't print it as front page news anymore.
> 
> Nope, she never got her 2 million.


I did not know she did not get her money.

I had read that the reason the authorities came down so heavily on McDonalds is because McDonald's had had previous warnings not to make their coffee so hot and not keep it so hot. From what I understand, coffee stays fresher when it is hotter and not allowed to evaporate.

So basically, McDonald's was being punished for not adhering to earlier warnings.


----------



## DuMass

RoBoTeq said:


> Manufacturer's will not be selling to the public any more then any manufacture sells to the public now. I am sure that we have the technology to manufacture more flexible refrigerant hoses such as are used in the automotive cooling systems.
> 
> I can see the big box stores renting vacuum pumps with quick connect locking fittings. Some equipment manufacturers have already produced sytems that are self charging. So, with the install of an accumulator or charge compensator, no refrigerant will ever have to be added to or leave a system and it won't even be necessary to put gauges on a system.
> 
> The last thing we should be doing is getting all cocky over how difficult it would be for easier to install DIY HVAC systems to be manufactured.


Who’s getting cocky…?
I can’t say that I’ve seen a pre-charged R410A quick-connect line set yet, but I’m sure I eventually will if they are out there.
I would wager that the majority of equipment failures are probably due to improper installation anyway, so a manufacturer making installation easier for an unconcerned installer to do correctly is most likely the driving force behind these components. The DIY aspect will just be an unfortunate end result of this due to the industries own inability to provide quality work and enough skilled installers to perform it. But, if there is money to be made on DIY, I'm sure that manufacturers and their entire distribution network would be glad to take advantage of it, regardless of any industry backlash.
I can see this working with something like mini-splits, but I don’t know how well it will work for new resi split system installs, which would also entail a furnace or air handler, ductwork, etc… unless they also offer a complete pre-engineered packaged installation layout including equipment, ductwork and a materials list based on submitted plans, something like they used to do with the old Sears Roebuck catalog homes decades ago.
I would agree that service is still going to be a situation where any loss from DIY installation may be heavily recouped.


----------



## beenthere

Not to stray off topic too much.

When McD's had their coffee makers temp turned down, it imediately changed the flavor.

Fortunately, when it went into appeal. The judge knew that coffee had to be brewed hot. And that its not reasonable to put a cup of freshly brewed coffee between your legs anytime, let alone while in a moving vehicle.


----------



## beenthere

There is always, a risk of liability.

There is always someone willing to sue.

Hopefully, they will always be a wise judge.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Not to stray off topic too much.
> 
> When McD's had their coffee makers temp turned down, it imediately changed the flavor.
> 
> Fortunately, when it went into appeal. The judge knew that coffee had to be brewed hot. And that its not reasonable to put a cup of freshly brewed coffee between your legs anytime, let alone while in a moving vehicle.


The things that are learned when silly things like a dumbass complaining that their coffee was hot:yes:

I did not know about the temperature of the brewing for coffee made such a difference at the time of that lawsuit. I did get into a conversation with a man during one of my business trips a few years ago who said he is careful where he buys his coffee when he is away because after the McDonald's lawsuit, many places that sell coffee had turned down the temerature of the brewing process and the coffee was not as good. Something about having to be at a high enough temperature to draw the oils out of the coffee for flavor.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> There is always, a risk of liability.
> 
> There is always someone willing to sue.
> 
> Hopefully, they will always be a wise judge.


Equating this back to HVAC and DIYers, the only thing that can really save HVAC from attempting to go the DIY route, yet again, is to regulate HVAC equipment for safety reasons.

This would make it an actual crime to install or work on HVAC systems without a license. In this way, licensed contractors would not be liable for DIY installs and repairs, but would become more liable then ever for our own work.


----------



## Yuri

In Canada nobody can buy any refrigerant or systems without a ozone/refrigerant tech license. We are now coming out with a Journeyman Residential tech license and in the near future a license holder will have to be on the job. DIYers do not exist on units here. Had one fool smuggle a Goodman split R410 and an Aspen R22 coil in and wanted us to hook it up. Kaching $$ when we went to get him the proper coil etc.


----------



## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> Equating this back to HVAC and DIYers, the only thing that can really save HVAC from attempting to go the DIY route, yet again, is to regulate HVAC equipment for safety reasons.
> 
> This would make it an actual crime to install or work on HVAC systems without a license. In this way, licensed contractors would not be liable for DIY installs and repairs, but would become more liable then ever for our own work.


When they make it illegal to buy brake pads, linings, rotors, and drums.

Then I might agree with that.

We're already not liable for a DIY install. In this state.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Well, according to Yuri, regulation is working in Canada. If there are no DIY HVAC installs in Canada because of the equipment being regulated, then why would this not work for the U.S.?

Then again, since I recently carried around a handgun throughout Onterio, I don't know how much Canadian regulations really have an impact:shifty:


----------



## RoBoTeq

Don't get me wrong, I don't like government regulations. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to buy anything and only be fined or jailed if what they buy is used for any criminal intent or if it's use causes damage to others.

With HVAC sytems, the more DIYing that goes on, the more systems are going to fail prematurely and the more work there will always be for the professionals.


----------



## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> Well, according to Yuri, regulation is working in Canada. If there are no DIY HVAC installs in Canada because of the equipment being regulated, then why would this not work for the U.S.?
> 
> Then again, since I recently carried around a handgun throughout Onterio, I don't know how much Canadian regulations really have an impact:shifty:


Man, what where you thinking? What would have happened if you got caught?


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> Man, what where you thinking? What would have happened if you got caught?


I wasn't thinking at all. I always carry unless I am flying, and even then I accidentally took a loaded 9mm to Houston with me without anyone catching it was in my suitcase. It's always with me and I just forget to leave it home on those special occasions where I could be arrested for terrorism and spend the rest of my life being fed, washed while lounging on a board and otherwise be taken care of for the rest of my life on some tropical island.


----------



## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't like government regulations. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to buy anything and only be fined or jailed if what they buy is used for any criminal intent or if it's use causes damage to others.
> 
> With HVAC sytems, the more DIYing that goes on, the more systems are going to fail prematurely and the more work there will always be for the professionals.



DIY is not new. Been going on for longer then I've been alive.

The internet has made it possible for more people to do it. But its not new.
And there are many DIYers that do a better install or repair then some of the techs/companies in there area would do.


----------



## milk man

One could say everything started as DIY. Even Henry Ford was a DIYer.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> DIY is not new. Been going on for longer then I've been alive.
> 
> The internet has made it possible for more people to do it. But its not new.
> And there are many DIYers that do a better install or repair then some of the techs/companies in there area would do.


I agree that DIY has always been and will always be. However, every time HVAC DIY has been promoted by the big box stores, it has failed miserably.

From the "install your own complete air conditiong system" that Scott's Home and Garden stores tried out to simple things like whole house humidifiers have been disasers for big box retailers. 

However, it was the Home Depot, Hechinger, Lowes, Scott's crowd that are responsible for killing the EPA ruling that you had to be cfc certified to purchase refrigerant bearing "split" system units. The original cfc ruling did specify that any refrigerant bearing unit that required being connected by refrigeration to another component was to be purchased only by a cfc certificate holder. That ruling was removed literally hours before the cfc certification requirements was put into affect.

That tells me that despite the failures to make HVAC DIY a success, that the big box retailers wanted that door left open. Now we have every big box retailer allying itself with an HVAC equipment manufacturer. The two entities have been in bed together for years and have been very active in their foreplay. It's only a matter of time before they consumate that relationship, only HVAC professionals will be the ones getting screwed.


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> One could say everything started as DIY. Even Henry Ford was a DIYer.


So, should we not put any effort into reducing DIY of HVAC? I am getting very mixed signals here. Are we making excuses for why DIY should be left alone? If there is a viable fight that will actually reduce DIY of HVAC, I will support it. But if all we are going to do is complain about it without any results, then I say we just let it happen and work with it instead of against it.

Then again, let's go ahead and take old Henry Ford as an example. Can you make your own vehicle from existing components? Of course you can. Can you get that vehicle to be legal for licensing and putting in operation on the road? Probably so. Would there be so many regulations and testing and hundreds of hours of paper work in order to allow that DIYed vehicle to be licensed? YOU BETCHA!

So, if we go the route of the vehicle requirements, we just may see as many HVAC DIYers as we do vehicle DIYers.


----------



## beenthere

Kit cars have been around for years. And are not hard to get passed as road legal.

We're not talking about building a house.

Assembly of an HVAC system, is not as hard as building a kit car.


----------



## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> So, should we not put any effort into reducing DIY of HVAC? I am getting very mixed signals here. Are we making excuses for why DIY should be left alone? If there is a viable fight that will actually reduce DIY of HVAC, I will support it. But if all we are going to do is complain about it without any results, then I say we just let it happen and work with it instead of against it.
> 
> Then again, let's go ahead and take old Henry Ford as an example. Can you make your own vehicle from existing components? Of course you can. Can you get that vehicle to be legal for licensing and putting in operation on the road? Probably so. Would there be so many regulations and testing and hundreds of hours of paper work in order to allow that DIYed vehicle to be licensed? YOU BETCHA!
> 
> So, if we go the route of the vehicle requirements, we just may see as many HVAC DIYers as we do vehicle DIYers.


Hey I showed this thread to my buddy Kanye and he actually wrote the following for me to you:

"Yo RoBo....I'm happy for you and all and gonna let you finish, but Milk man had one of the
best posts of all time"

Thanks Kanye:thumbsup:


----------



## milk man

Regulate DIYers just like we are. 

They need to pull permits, have inspections, and pay fine when this is not done.


----------



## milk man

:laughing: I've been planning that ever since I saw that "jack ass" on tee vee.

:thumbsup: to the president on his quote.


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> Hey I showed this thread to my buddy Kanye and he actually wrote the following for me to you:
> 
> "Yo RoBo....I'm happy for you and all and gonna let you finish, but Milk man had one of the
> best posts of all time"
> 
> Thanks Kanye:thumbsup:


I got no clue:confused1:


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> :laughing: I've been planning that ever since I saw that "jack ass" on tee vee.
> 
> :thumbsup: to the president on his quote.


Are you talking (posting) to yourself?


----------



## milk man

RoBoTeq said:


> I got no clue:confused1:


 
Now there is a door wide open.


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> Now there is a door wide open.


That's because I'm such a nice guy.


----------



## decdec

Interesting subject ....... thing is Robo , I think manufactures would cut us out if they think they can. Its just like any other product ......they want their cut of the pie. If the economy gets tighter , the slices of the pie get smaller ..... there is only so much money out there. Manufactures have to figure anyway they can get the same , or larger slice of the pie ........ who cares what the installers or service guy get. Just like new construction ........ its all about getting subs that work for nothing , or less than others will work for. Same as most products , you need to cut costs as much as possible to make more money. 

I know a lot will say I'm stupid but I think a lot of where our industry has changed came in around the same time as everyone started doing flat rate pricing ......... just as what happened with the automotive repair industry ...... prices went way up.

Ya I know a lot will say oh your full of it being its the only way your gonna make money. Ya thats fine but I'm just talking about where I think things started to change for our industry as far as why I also think it headed the way of the dyi more.

I was setting in the dentist chair the other day , paying way more then I wanted being it was a new dentist that I got lured into under the idea that he was way more reasonably priced ( my dentist retired so I needed a new one ). Girlfriend recomended him being she thought he was pretty reasonable, now he was pretty new for her and hadn't had all that much done. I called and got his rates as far as teeth cleaning , first checkup with x rays , fillings.

Reasonable prices, so I go in for first checkup and find I have 1 cavity , need a filling where one is coming apart, need a good cleaning . All the sudden the prices are really not what was told over the phone ....... they give me a flat rate sheet and I'm asking why these are nowhere what I was quoted ........ I'm also hearing the same teeth cleaning price be quoted over the phone by a differant secretary ...... that I originally was quoted.

They just claim every case is a little differant .... which isn't what I want to hear.

Ya I probably should have walked but I figured I would be better to get the cavity and filling fixed and then go find a new dentist and give him the xrays and stuff from this one.

While he was working on my teeth and waiting for the novicane to kick in I asked him why the prices were differant being I understood it is flat rate ....... and it wasn't the same as there charging over the phone. He himed and hawed a little and I told him that I charged flat rate so I know how it really works ..... he just kind of laughed and said he avoids using anyone charging flat rate in a lot of businesses being he knows that way is the worst case senerio.

I didn't press it being I honestly look at it that way too and could understand exactly what he was saying. It makes me realize how many people out there have all changed there way of going to flat rate pricing ..... and all the people that realize that anyone they do business with is probably gonna be way higher in cost then someone not charging flat rate ....... thats competant and not trying to screw them.

NO DON"T TAKE THAT, THAT EVERYONE FLAT RATE IS TRYING TO SCREW THEM ( I'm just giving an opinion Why I think things are gonna change )

I see it for a lot of businesses anymore that in this economy that people are not willing to pay what we are asking now as to what we were before. They see the big increase in cost from everyone changing to flat rate, a huge amount that have been burn't by flate rate ...... low diagnostic charge then told $400 to $700 for something it cost $175, 6 years ago to do.

People are turning into DYI's any chance they get ..... wether it be hvac or automotive.

The more DYI's there are out there the more the Home Depots , Lowe's, and every furnace manufacture looks at it .......... THATS OUR SLICE OF THE PIE.

They want their money wether we are any part of it or not. If it takes eliminating our cut of the slice of pie ........ they don't care . They will let us fight over the scap pieces of pie crust that fall of from things not working quite right. Ya there will be some but we will be fighting for that with unemployed techs working out of their garages.

Might be a little safer in the large comercial stuff as long as its not fleet accounts or national chains that get national pricing.


Its a interesting subject Robo ...... thought I would throw what I think, and where I think its headed , and maybe why. :sad: HOPE I"M WRONG

Ps ..... hope your feeling better and didn't have too much birthday cake :thumbsup:


----------



## RoBoTeq

Not one piece of cake dec, and I too hope you and I are wrong about where the equipment manufacturer's are steering our industry.

Then again, it may wind up being more like it is in places like Japan. There, you have manufacturer's stores that distribute directly to consumers but have their own in house installers to make sure their products are properly installed.

It really doesn't matter to me whether I am working for a distributor, a manufacturer or a contractor, as long as there is work for all of us.


----------



## Blu Voltaire

*What about Nest ??*

In our side of the business we are very concerned about Nest bypassing the HVAC contractor and telling us what we can charge to install one of their thermostats, is anyone else concerned about this trend. 
Pretty interesting discussion here: http://controltrends.org/2012/06/the-nest-thermostat-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/


----------



## FanAttic

The service calls I hate the most is fixing a homowner or horrible techs install or screwed up repair. I do however think that a person should have the legal right to fix whatever they want in thier own home that they own and live in as long as they feel that they are capable. With rights come resposibilities, they also have the right to screw it up horribly, pay twice as much for somthing to be properly done if they do screw it up. The avarage DIYer has no background in electricity, or venting. A person does not have to be a moron to make a mistake fixing thier furnace or get electrocuted, just lack a more in depth understanding of dangers and operation of hvac equipment and components. In the end it might save you some, or it might cost you alot.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Blu Voltaire said:


> In our side of the business we are very concerned about Nest bypassing the HVAC contractor and telling us what we can charge to install one of their thermostats, is anyone else concerned about this trend.
> Pretty interesting discussion here: http://controltrends.org/2012/06/the-nest-thermostat-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/


Just refuse to install NEST stats. They are mostly all going to be removed in a year or two anyway. Only the most devout environMENTAList is going to allow the NEST to save energy at the cost of their comfort. And if these were truly energy minded folks, they would not have mechanical cooling systems and would keep their heat at 50 degrees all the time.


----------



## RoBoTeq

FanAttic said:


> The service calls I hate the most is fixing a homowner or horrible techs install or screwed up repair. I do however think that a person should have the legal right to fix whatever they want in thier own home that they own and live in as long as they feel that they are capable. With rights come resposibilities, they also have the right to screw it up horribly, pay twice as much for somthing to be properly done if they do screw it up. The avarage DIYer has no background in electricity, or venting. A person does not have to be a moron to make a mistake fixing thier furnace or get electrocuted, just lack a more in depth understanding of dangers and operation of hvac equipment and components. In the end it might save you some, or it might cost you alot.


 I always loved going behind DIYer's and bad technicians. Fixing someone elses mistakes allow us to charge premium prices because we are proving that we are making use of knowledge that we have paid to obtain over the years.


----------



## Superdave1

We really don't see how this would be possible. Our State has licensing and Fed's have environmental restrictions.

Also, its best left to a professional.:yes:


----------



## beenthere

Superdave1 said:


> We really don't see how this would be possible. Our State has licensing and Fed's have environmental restrictions.
> 
> Also, its best left to a professional.:yes:


No federal regs restrict anyone from servicing or installing R410A systems.


----------



## Upton O Good

*I doubt it*

My opinion is the DIY will not have a big impact. I say this as a DIY'er, after having studied carefully what it takes to do a proper install. 

Sure the units will become more widely available, and some guys will figure it out. But it still represents a big project that most homeowners will choose not to take on themselves. 

And there is still a considerable outlay for tools and equipment. 

And there are too many unique and difficult install situations. 

And for those who do it themselves, a certain percentage will do it wrong. 

And if manufacturers really are successful at making the units "plug and play", they will eventually need service which requires more expensive tools and expertise. 

I would liken it to the auto service industry. There is little government regulation, and lots of guys can do it. But the great majority choose to pay a pro for lots of very good reasons.

I'd be curious to hear opinions within this related topic I posted earlier:

http://www.hvacsite.com/f3/question-you-pros-id-like-know-your-opinion-1403/


----------



## acuransx

i have been trying to get my system fixed for 20 days 5 guys came out 1000 later none of them have the proper tools i have no problem paying if they no what they are doing they all want to take short cuts they done want to call the Goodman for help because they will be ask questions they cant answer like what is the wet bulb none of them had a psychrometer or anemometer or a micron gauge they all want to treat it like r22 they dont want to wait to get a good vacuum this is why a do it your self if they have access can take the time to do it right i mean i purchased everything online all fieldpeice products i spent $600 bucks for all of it including guage set i guess its better for them to keep taking money and just say condensor bad here is my problem see if one of you can fix the problem brand new goodman 3 ton ssx140361 chpf3642C6 Coil 
Outside temp at condenser 83
Wet bulb 22 humidity 56temp 
Due point 25 39
Dry bulb 77 at 22
Low Suction at condenser temp 48
High Liquid at condenser temp 85
Suction at coil temp 48 
Liquid at coil temp 85
Return 72
Supply 57
Cfm furnace 1245
Piston size 67
Super heat none
Sub cooling
High side pressure 375
Low side pressure 142 
7 lbs of freon 24 ft line set
Thanks For your help


----------



## ductlessaire

We at DuctlessAire build our equipment for ease of installations and trouble shooting but require it to be installed by state Licensed professional. But we do see a lot of customers try DYI. I don't really think it will make a big impact on the trade as we all know 1 little bump in the road and it is off to the phone book. I say If you cant fix it Don't try to install it.


----------



## hvactrainingspot

I don't know if it is still an issue, but I believe NEST was having some problems with diodes that were causing burnt low voltage controls in furnaces for a while. That might have been resolved by now though. I haven't heard any more.


----------



## heatingrepairchicago

RoBoTeq said:


> I see equipment that doesn't require the skills to troubleshoot controls further then counting how many times a light blinks, systems that don't require technical charging techniques and a refrigerant that does not technically require a cfc certification because it is not a cfc. And HVAC company owners think these are good things because now they don't need to worry as much as to how skilled their techs are.
> 
> DUH! If an unskilled tech can do it, a skillful DIYer won't have any trouble.
> 
> Just how easy should our industry make HVAC equipment to install and is that the real intent of the manufacturers building equipment that requires less technical skills?


I think it will hurt service in the long run but not anytime soon.. as for installation it wont ever be DIY in my opinion.


----------



## dust chasers

you got a point, I still think there is still gonna be people out there who would prefer skilled techs to take care of the job.


----------



## airconexpert

If you do not have the necessary expertise, tools or knowledge, it is best to hire professional technicians to troubleshoot it for you.


----------



## seabeeken123

So many people think they can DIY. Especially when you can easily buy parts and equipment online. 
On the positive side, I'm making pretty good money fixing all of their screw ups. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HVAC Service Mentor

*Diy???*

If you want to see where the tech is headed, look at mini split technology. Very sophisticated communicating controls with extensive diagnostic feedback. While simple troubleshooting may get a bit simpler, the systems are advanced and not at all easy to work on. Refrigeration is still refrigeration, and Gas and oil are still gas and oil.

If you think that a DIYer can take the place of qualified techs because equipment is getting simpler, you may not know your own job as good as you think you do.

It is this very reason why OEMs are racing to idiot - proof things as much as possible.


----------



## pintofstout

I'll tell you this, for me, if there's a YouTube video about it I'm doing it myself. I pay no-one to do nothing.

It's good our industry isn't like auto. Over there, there are forums just for DIYers where proper mechanics walk them through everything.

Fixing your computer is another one, I've fixed everything on mine by following step by step troubleshooting guides for exactly that problem. 

We as tech's have actually done pretty well keeping it locked up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ACSS

It is advisable to use the services of a reliable HVAC service provider. For simple cleaning of filters perhaps can diy. Not advisable for the difficult tasks unless well trained and equipped.


----------



## jedy22k

You can try DIY on your own, but if you feel that it is hard, then you can try calling an expert for help.


----------



## 208 37-Flash

beenthere said:


> The funny thing is how much press the lawsuit got. And how well they left everyone know she won.
> 
> But, how little coverage it got. When McDonalds and won. They didn't print it as front page news anymore.
> 
> Nope, she never got her 2 million.


She got screwed. I saw a documentary on the situation, and how big business shamed her. She just wanted to get re-imbursed for medical. Sorry for the digression.


----------



## 208 37-Flash

RoBoTeq said:


> I see equipment that doesn't require the skills to troubleshoot controls further then counting how many times a light blinks, systems that don't require technical charging techniques and a refrigerant that does not technically require a cfc certification because it is not a cfc. And HVAC company owners think these are good things because now they don't need to worry as much as to how skilled their techs are.
> 
> DUH! If an unskilled tech can do it, a skillful DIYer won't have any trouble.
> 
> Just how easy should our industry make HVAC equipment to install and is that the real intent of the manufacturers building equipment that requires less technical skills?


The thing is trouble-codes can be misleading. One can end up purchasing unnecessary parts, if they depend on the trouble-codes. As for hiring, unskilled techs, they end up costing money. Hopefully, "they" do their homework, to improve.


----------



## sktn77a

The average homeowner hasn't a clue when it comes to HVAC, so there'll always be a place for service and installation companies. Unfortunately, the bad companies/individuals give everybody a bad name to the point that most HVAC techs get about as much respect as used car salesmen. And if you don't agree, check out the "$69 annual service special" ads and the fine print of extended labor warranties.


----------



## Sm_raudales

Should I Install My Own Air Conditioner Unit?

The Drawbacks.... If you install your new AC unit yourself, there’s a good chance you’ll void the warranty as most require them to be installed by licensed technicians. 

Licensed HVAC technicians undergo at least a year of training plus hands-on experience under the guide of an experienced mentor in order to ensure a safe, efficient installation.

In order to add refrigerant to your air conditioning unit or remove an old unit that has refrigerant inside, you’ll need to have special EPA-certification to do this legally and safely. This involves studying for an exam, plus paying a fee, whereas a certified technician already has this certification in place.


----------

