# line size ?



## sspeedster37

I swapped out a 2ton unit heat pump (R410A) about 3months ago. I told the owner it might be a problem later. Will it? The line size was 3/4 and 3/8. The horizontal suction line is 5/8 from the condensor (about 22ft) and where the vertical to the air handler is 3/4. Will the 5/8 line need to be upsized? Thank you for your Help


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## nicktech

what does the manu. recommend? the difference between 3/4 and 5/8 is only a an 1/8 of an inch and at 22 ft of it the mass flow rate "should" be ok, if there would be a problem it would reflect in you superheat.


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## sspeedster37

It called for 3/4. I just would hate to tear into it again, if it will be fine. superheat was good. He is willing to pay for it, but I would hate for him to have to spend more money if it will not harm the system.


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## hvaclover

If the guy is willing to pay than your professionalism should guide you to do the right thing.

22 feet is a long run ...I would change it.


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## scooter

One thing that I have learned from heat pumps is that improper line size causes excessive noise in some situations. 
Aside from that, in this struggling economy, dont leave money on the table. 
"Sir, while changing your heat pump I noticed several things that I would like to talk with (not to) you about. Your line size is not sized properly and even though it has been working "ok" for awhile, you can likely increase the efficiency and add some longevity to the life of the unit by correcting this issue. it will cost this much $$$$.
I also noticed that it is a heat pump and that the indoor coil is the same size as your outdoor unit. we can increase to size of your inddor coil to add efficiency to the heat pump. it will cost this much$$$ 
You see what I mean and I am sure there are others here that can give some pointers on some good situations to upsell?
Dont try to save or spend peoples money for them. if you notice a situation where the customer could benefit from a product or service, ask them, and be sincere. most imes they will go for it and if they dont, leave somthing for them like a price quote and some literature, and you will find that after they have some time to think about it you will get a call back.
I did an A/C check last week and the condensor was under his deck. explained to him the faux pas and gave him a qoute to move it 20'. he declined. left a writen quote on the invoice for the check and clean and left. monday there was a message on the machine that he would like us to call him, guess why.
Customers are willing to do alot when they trust that you are looking out for them, however you really need to be looking out for them because they also have really good radar for a scam.
Scooter


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## henny

sspeedster37 said:


> I swapped out a 2ton unit heat pump (R410A) about 3months ago. I told the owner it might be a problem later. Will it? The line size was 3/4 and 3/8. The horizontal suction line is 5/8 from the condensor (about 22ft) and where the vertical to the air handler is 3/4. Will the 5/8 line need to be upsized? Thank you for your Help


Most manufacturer's installation manuals have a chart that recommends optimum line size and includes a performance degradation factor for slight size deviations based on the running length.

I would let that chart be my guide as to what to do.


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## sspeedster37

He trust me and he is also a friend of a friend. I told him that I would ask to see if it was the best thing to do. I recognized it when I installed it, but he wanted it done asap. He called me about it yesterday and I told him I would ask some people with more knowledge. I will tell him it should be replaced. The only thing that sucks is I dont have a recovery tank. Whats the best way to tell when its mostly pumped down. Do you go by suction pressure or by the sound of the compressor? Sorry about all the questions.


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## scooter

This is a pretty basic procedure. Are you certified to handle refrigerant. Do you have a guage set for the refrigerant you are handling?


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## mechanicalDvr

sspeedster37 said:


> He trust me and he is also a friend of a friend. I told him that I would ask to see if it was the best thing to do. I recognized it when I installed it, but he wanted it done asap. He called me about it yesterday and I told him I would ask some people with more knowledge. I will tell him it should be replaced. The only thing that sucks is I dont have a recovery tank. Whats the best way to tell when its mostly pumped down. Do you go by suction pressure or by the sound of the compressor? Sorry about all the questions.


No offense but asking those questions you really shouldn't be dealing with refrigerants at all let alone R410A. The life you save maybe your own.


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## nicktech

mechanicalDvr said:


> No offense but asking those questions you really shouldn't be dealing with refrigerants at all let alone R410A. The life you save maybe your own.


right on


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## hvaclover

You new contractors, this IS a DIY site. Give him something to go.


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## hvaclover

sspeedster37 said:


> He trust me and he is also a friend of a friend. I told him that I would ask to see if it was the best thing to do. I recognized it when I installed it, but he wanted it done asap. He called me about it yesterday and I told him I would ask some people with more knowledge. I will tell him it should be replaced. The only thing that sucks is I dont have a recovery tank. Whats the best way to tell when its mostly pumped down. Do you go by suction pressure or by the sound of the compressor? Sorry about all the questions.


Pump the condenser over til the suction pressure is just above zero. That will isolate the air handler and the lines while you do modifications.


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## henny

hvaclover said:


> You new contractors, this IS a DIY site. Give him something to go.


It is?? Then why does the banner say HVAC Pros Only??


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## jvegas

I hope that was just a joke about a diy forum


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## mechanicalDvr

henny said:


> It is?? Then why does the banner say HVAC Pros Only??


 
I agree, but don't question the Drac Wac he's old and gets his feelings hurt and sends PMs to you.


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## hvaclover

henny said:


> It is?? Then why does the banner say HVAC Pros Only??



My bad.
D-hu

Forgot where I was. Sorry

Speeedster; if you bought the unit for the customer there is an install Manuel.

and if you don't have a recovery machine and tank ...get one. It's illegal to do system work with out one.


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## sspeedster37

I have a universal epa certification. r410a certification, I also went to tech school and graduated with an hvac/r diploma. I have only been doing it for almost 5yrs with most of that in install, with light service. Tools are expensive and I have beenable to require my own set of gauges both for r22 and 410a, vacuum pump, digital micron gauge, sling pyschrometer and nitrogen tank. I always like to double check to make sure I am right, or to be right. Sorry if i came across as a diy. I just didnt want to mess the new compressor up. But for a relatively short time I think I have done quite well.


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## hvaclover

Sh1t, I had every tool I need two years out.:thumbsup:


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## sspeedster37

I also have 3 kids and a wife. Glad to see u have done as well as u have.


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## hvaclover

sspeedster37 said:


> I have a universal epa certification. r410a certification, I also went to tech school and graduated with an hvac/r diploma. I have only been doing it for almost 5yrs with most of that in install, with light service. Tools are expensive and I have beenable to require my own set of gauges both for r22 and 410a, vacuum pump, digital micron gauge, sling pyschrometer and nitrogen tank. I always like to double check to make sure I am right, or to be right. Sorry if i came across as a diy. I just didnt want to mess the new compressor up. But for a relatively short time I think I have done quite well.


5 years and yet you can't pump over a condenser?

i teach hvac and if you were one of my students you'd get a a swift lesson in Bootology.


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## sspeedster37

Obviously I canpump down a system. I just wanted to make sure i was able to pump it down as best as possible without causing harm to the system. The pumpdown isnt hard maybe i can have some of ur money go buy what i need to do the job and prevent some dumbass residential service tech from most of the ac companies of screwing over another person, especially a friend. Everybody know that at best there might be 10% of service tech worth anything. And my bad for not knowing everything in the world. That is why I came to the site to learn and benefit from others knowledge instead of the wish her well technique


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## hvaclover

sspeedster37 said:


> Obviously I canpump down a system. I just wanted to make sure i was able to pump it down as best as possible without causing harm to the system. The pumpdown isnt hard maybe i can have some of ur money go buy what i need to do the job and prevent some dumbass residential service tech from most of the ac companies of screwing over another person, especially a friend. Everybody know that at best there might be 10% of service tech worth anything. And my bad for not knowing everything in the world. That is why I came to the site to learn and benefit from others knowledge instead of the wish her well technique



One thing about hvac, you gotta have common sense. You didn't own what you needed to do the job as you said.

So here's an idea: ask your boss to use the tools he provides you with.

JEEZe...


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## gene2

What?, no CO2 involved? 

Best to Follow manufacturers instructions. Clover knows what I mean.


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## hvaclover

gene2 said:


> What?, no CO2 involved?
> 
> Best to Follow manufacturers instructions. Clover knows what I mean.


he can use CO2 when he corrects that 5/8 suction line.:yes:


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## mechanicalDvr

sspeedster37 said:


> Obviously I canpump down a system. I just wanted to make sure i was able to pump it down as best as possible without causing harm to the system. The pumpdown isnt hard maybe i can have some of ur money go buy what i need to do the job and prevent some dumbass residential service tech from most of the ac companies of screwing over another person, especially a friend. Everybody know that at best there might be 10% of service tech worth anything. And my bad for not knowing everything in the world. That is why I came to the site to learn and benefit from others knowledge instead of the wish her well technique


You don't sound like you can when you post " Do you go by suction pressure or by the sound of the compressor?" I have known hungreds of techs over the years and don't know any that can tell a condenser is pumped down by listening to the compressor run.


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## hvaclover

mechanicalDvr said:


> You don't sound like you can when you post " Do you go by suction pressure or by the sound of the compressor?" I have known hungreds of techs over the years and don't know any that can tell a condenser is pumped down by listening to the compressor run.


Sure he can:yes: All you gotta do is wait for the grinding sound of failed valves
and you're done...and how!:laughing:


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## coolmen

hvaclover said:


> Sure he can:yes: All you gotta do is wait for the grinding sound of failed valves
> and you're done...and how!:laughing:


 :laughing:


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## mechanicalDvr

hvaclover said:


> Sure he can:yes: All you gotta do is wait for the grinding sound of failed valves
> and you're done...and how!:laughing:


 
Sorry I thought he was pumping it down to do a repair not replace the unit.


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## beenthere

A side job.

Don't forget while your doing your side jobs. EPA requires you to have available to you, a recovery system.

You now have a heat pump installed that its hot gas line changes sizes.
Makes for interesting situations in heating mode.


While tools and service equipmet are expensive.
Its best not to tackle any job that you don't have the tools that you should.


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## mechanicalDvr

beenthere said:


> A side job.
> 
> Don't forget while your doing your side jobs. EPA requires you to have available to you, a recovery system.
> 
> You now have a heat pump installed that its hot gas line changes sizes.
> Makes for interesting situations in heating mode.
> 
> 
> While tools and service equipmet are expensive.
> Its best not to tackle any job that you don't have the tools that you should.


 
So many guys do side jobs until they end up in court. It just isn't worth the money when that happens.


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## Tony Pullen

hey...I gotta agree with "clover"...pump down is hvac 101!! you learn it right after you learn about the Montreal Protocol! That having been said, if this is on a mobile home and it is one of those "God forsaken" quick connects, then it has no service valves and therefore can't be pumped down. But the previous poster is right...epa REQUIRES you to own a recovery unit if you service any type of refrigeration system.


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## Vaporx

sspeedster37 said:


> I swapped out a 2ton unit heat pump (R410A) about 3months ago. I told the owner it might be a problem later. Will it? The line size was 3/4 and 3/8. The horizontal suction line is 5/8 from the condensor (about 22ft) and where the vertical to the air handler is 3/4. Will the 5/8 line need to be upsized? Thank you for your Help


Vapor line sizing is a compromise between oil return and capacity loss. If you look at enough line sizing charts, the conclusion is 410A systems can tolerate smaller ID's than 22 systems...

Worst case scenario for your situation would be some capacity loss with the 5/8ths...but for 30 feet or so and 2 tons, it will be negligible, if any.


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