# champagne leaks in inside coils



## linebacker

I'm reading more and more about inside coils leaking freon and am supprised that it has taken so long for dealers to speak up about them. We have had the problem for several years and have been told that we were the only dealer having the problem. We have since learned that "they lied". If you are having this problem, you are not alone. You need to insist that your supplier help you with the problem.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Ahh, the old supply house shuffle. Telling you that you are the only one with a problem with a part that they are standing on twenty more of. That's a real shame when that happens, but there is a reason.

If a part is claimed to be overall faulty by distributors, especially when the manufacturer of that part has not issued a bulletin claiming any issues or taking any responsibility, the distributors tend to downplay there being a fault because the moment they do, contractors stop looking for other reasons for that part to go bad.

Case in point; champagne leaks in coils. This is not a manufacturing fault, although manufacturers are working to prevent the issue from occuring with their coils. So, if the distributor tells you that they get a lot of leaky coils back with champagne leaks, you, or at least others, will start condemning indoor coils a lot sooner without attempting to find where another leak source may be.

I know it's not right, but neither is it right that contractors get lazy when they think they can lay blame on a faulty part.

Incidentally, champagne leaks are caused by the environment of the HVAC system. There are VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) in the air that when mixed with the condensate on the coils, etch the copper with microscopic corrosion that looks like a cutaway of an ant farm. In fact, it is referred to as formicary corrosion. Formicary means; "ant like".


----------



## RoBoTeq

There is another thing that can cause leaks similar to formicary corrosion that may also be thought of as champagne leaks. That is when a proper evacuation of the system was not performed and small particles of moisture get trapped in the inside connections of the coil where parts are brazed together. Over time, sometimes not very long, the place where the moisture is trapped erodes the copper from the inside out. You fix one spot and a month later another one appears.

To tell if this condition exists, when you remove an inside coil, check for any greenish coloration on the inside where copper parts are brazed together. That is copper oxide, copper being eroded by oxygen which was introduced in moisture in the system.


----------



## linebacker

RoBoTeq said:


> There is another thing that can cause leaks similar to formicary corrosion that may also be thought of as champagne leaks. That is when a proper evacuation of the system was not performed and small particles of moisture get trapped in the inside connections of the coil where parts are brazed together. Over time, sometimes not very long, the place where the moisture is trapped erodes the copper from the inside out. You fix one spot and a month later another one appears.
> 
> To tell if this condition exists, when you remove an inside coil, check for any greenish coloration on the inside where copper parts are brazed together. That is copper oxide, copper being eroded by oxygen which was introduced in moisture in the system.


 I appreciate your input. It is never the factory's fault. It is funny that two manufactors made a change on their assenbly line and the problem left. We have also had the same type leaks before the coils were installed. 
I know I'm fighting a losing battle, but it isn't fair to the HO's that are paying for a problem that isn't their fault.


----------



## RoBoTeq

linebacker said:


> I appreciate your input. It is never the factory's fault. It is funny that two manufactors made a change on their assenbly line and the problem left. We have also had the same type leaks before the coils were installed.
> I know I'm fighting a losing battle, but it isn't fair to the HO's that are paying for a problem that isn't their fault.


You specifically stated champagne leaks. As far as I know there has been no manufacturing issue that causes this particular type of a leak.

When we are dealing with champagne leaks in coils, it is usually something the installer did wrong, in which case the installer should pay for problem, or it is something in the HO's house that should at least be brought to their attention. Just blaming manufacturer's for issues does not resolve these issues.


----------



## linebacker

RoBoTeq said:


> You specifically stated champagne leaks. As far as I know there has been no manufacturing issue that causes this particular type of a leak.
> 
> When we are dealing with champagne leaks in coils, it is usually something the installer did wrong, in which case the installer should pay for problem, or it is something in the HO's house that should at least be brought to their attention. Just blaming manufacturer's for issues does not resolve these issues.


 Spoken like a true factory rep. and I appreciate your opinion. It is a proven fact that a major part of the problem has started in the factory. You need to stop listening to the factory and see what some of the other factories did to stop the problem. I think I have had this discussion with you on another site. May you have a blessed day!


----------



## RoBoTeq

linebacker said:


> Spoken like a true factory rep. and I appreciate your opinion. It is a proven fact that a major part of the problem has started in the factory. You need to stop listening to the factory and see what some of the other factories did to stop the problem. I think I have had this discussion with you on another site. May you have a blessed day!


Why do you bother asking about things that you already believe you have all of the answers to? To dismiss the information of others with such trite comments as "typical factory rep response" just shows your ignorance to want to learn and better yourself and our industry.

I stand by everything I have stated, and, I am not a factory rep.


----------



## milk man

What is a champagne leaks?


----------



## RoBoTeq

milk man said:


> What is a champagne leaks?


This particular type of leak got it's name from the fine mist of bubbles that come out of a leaky coil that is submerged in water and pressurized with air or other gas. The holes are so tiny that you need a microscope to be able to see them, but their are usually multiple holes.

Like I mentioned, champagne leaks within the coil pack are caused by the mild acid etching of the coil tubes due to Volutile Organic Compounds in the air that mix with the condensate. This mild acid mixture etches the tubing until the etchings eat all the way through the tube. The etchings look like ant tunnels in an ant farm and so this effect is called formicary (ant like) corrosion.

Three factors make formicary corrosion more prominent these days; 1. tubing is thinner walled and rifled for better heat transfer required for higher efficiencies. 2. There are much more VOCs in the air in our homes due to all of the scented products on the market that we stink up our homes with. 3. Homes are much tighter built with much less air changes then there used to be.


----------



## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> ...........................Three factors make formicary corrosion more prominent these days; 1. tubing is thinner walled and rifled for better heat transfer required for higher efficiencies. 2. There are much more VOCs in the air in our homes due to all of the scented products on the market that we stink up our homes with. 3. Homes are much tighter built with much less air changes then there used to be.


Do I detect a bias against Carrier coils with their rifled tubes there robo? They are now claiming that their new coating prevents this from happening and that a new house should be "aired" out to remove the VOCs and have adequate supply of OA for better health. Just wanted your opinion on this. Thank you, Thank you very much.


----------



## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Do I detect a bias against Carrier coils with their rifled tubes there robo? They are now claiming that their new coating prevents this from happening and that a new house should be "aired" out to remove the VOCs and have adequate supply of OA for better health. Just wanted your opinion on this. Thank you, Thank you very much.


I have no idea what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with any specific brand of equipment. Most all, if not all coil tubing today is rifled. All copper/aluminum coils can experience formicary corrosion, which 
is why so many brands of equipment are going to all aluminum indoor coils.

There are enough people making idiotic statements as to why I post information. I certainly don't need every Tom, Dick and Harry making up stupid reasons for why I post factual information.

It would really be nice if posters would post when they have related information rather then making up absurd reasons why those of us who are posting related information are doing so.


----------



## linebacker

RoBoTeq said:


> Why do you bother asking about things that you already believe you have all of the answers to? To dismiss the information of others with such trite comments as "typical factory rep response" just shows your ignorance to want to learn and better yourself and our industry.
> 
> I stand by everything I have stated, and, I am not a factory rep.


 Whatever! This didn't start as a question, but I do appreciate your response. This is the most activity I've seen on this site since I started checking. I will agree with you that I'm ignorant and it amazes me every day how lucky I've been the last 45 years in business.


----------



## henny

RoBoTeq said:


> 2. There are much more VOCs in the air in our homes due to all of the scented products on the market that we stink up our homes with.


Can you be a little more specific? Other then toilet spray, what other common VOC's permeate a home to the extent that they cause copper corrosion in the coil?


----------



## nicktech

RoBoTeq said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with any specific brand of equipment. Most all, if not all coil tubing today is rifled. All copper/aluminum coils can experience formicary corrosion, which
> is why so many brands of equipment are going to all aluminum indoor coils.
> 
> There are enough people making idiotic statements as to why I post information. I certainly don't need every Tom, Dick and Harry making up stupid reasons for why I post factual information.
> 
> It would really be nice if posters would post when they have related information rather then making up absurd reasons why those of us who are posting related information are doing so.


what did tom's harry dick say again?, i missed it


----------



## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with any specific brand of equipment. Most all, if not all coil tubing today is rifled. All copper/aluminum coils can experience formicary corrosion, which
> is why so many brands of equipment are going to all aluminum indoor coils.
> 
> There are enough people making idiotic statements as to why I post information. I certainly don't need every Tom, Dick and Harry making up stupid reasons for why I post factual information.
> 
> It would really be nice if posters would post when they have related information rather then making up absurd reasons why those of us who are posting related information are doing so.


Well robo I simply asked you a question and I get attacked as if I slapped you in the face. I went to an update seminar on equipment put on by Carrier and they basically went over all the points I told you about on their new coils and just wanted your honest opinion about it. 

The first sentence in my post was a joke and intended as such but I didn't realize that your skin was that thin and caused you to lose it on your reply post. The rest were what they had to say and I just wanted your objective opinion on their comments since you seemed to be very knowledgeable on this subject. 

I'm sorry I asked you and perhaps you should direct your comments about "idiotic statements" to the folks who put on the seminar and not me but I respectfully don't consider them idiotic like you insinuated with your heavy handed comment to my inquiring post. 

It shall never happen again. Thank you very much.


----------



## RoBoTeq

henny said:


> Can you be a little more specific? Other then toilet spray, what other common VOC's permeate a home to the extent that they cause copper corrosion in the coil?


Pretty much anything that is scented contains VOCs. Other common VOCs in the home are; pesticides, synthetic fragrances, vehicle exhaust, paint, polyurethane, glues, plastics, pressed wood products, etc. Formaldehyde is a common VOC.

Formaldehyde is a sensitizing substance that is found in many common building materials, such as particleboard, pressed wood, and interior plywood. It can also be found in caulks and adhesives, in paint, in furniture and permanent pressed fabrics, floor coverings, and in many cleaning products, etc. It is even found as a preservative in vaccination serums.

Products that commonly offgas numerous types of VOCs include caulks and adhesives, perfumes, after-shave lotions, toiletries, shampoos, household cleaners, furniture and furniture polishes, air fresheners, products with synthetic fragrances, fabrics, carpets, foams, plastics, and pesticides.

IAQ has become much worse over the past few decades. We are bringing more VOC's into our homes and diluting the air with fresh air much less. We are essentially poisoning ourselves as well as destroying our HVAC equipment.


----------



## RoBoTeq

nicktech said:


> what did tom's harry dick say again?, i missed it


Not said; sang; "hold on,,,,,A'mmm coming":laughing:


----------



## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Well robo I simply asked you a question and I get attacked as if I slapped you in the face. I went to an update seminar on equipment put on by Carrier and they basically went over all the points I told you about on their new coils and just wanted your honest opinion about it.
> 
> The first sentence in my post was a joke and intended as such but I didn't realize that your skin was that thin and caused you to lose it on your reply post. The rest were what they had to say and I just wanted your objective opinion on their comments since you seemed to be very knowledgeable on this subject.
> 
> I'm sorry I asked you and perhaps you should direct your comments about "idiotic statements" to the folks who put on the seminar and not me but I respectfully don't consider them idiotic like you insinuated with your heavy handed comment to my inquiring post.
> 
> It shall never happen again. Thank you very much.


Sorry if I misread your intentions. Considering your post came on the heal of another poster accusing me of being biased, it was a slap in the face of my integrety.


----------



## KnightRider

RoBoTeq said:


> Sorry if I misread your intentions. Considering your post came on the heal of another poster accusing me of being biased, it was a slap in the face of my integrety.


Understood, apology accepted. I do it all the time myself unfortunately and misread what someone has said. Like I said I was just kidding and was curious about what you think about their comments there. They were also highly concerned about VOCs from the carpet, furniture, etc. in the house. 

I personally thought that was a little to much. Surly a few ppm or ppb compounds in the air shouldn't effect the coil that much? But that is what they say and of course they say their "coating" is supposed to resist it a lot more. Glad we back to normal again.


----------



## henny

RoBoTeq said:


> Pretty much anything that is scented contains VOCs. Other common VOCs in the home are; pesticides, synthetic fragrances, vehicle exhaust, paint, polyurethane, glues, plastics, pressed wood products, etc. Formaldehyde is a common VOC.
> 
> Formaldehyde is a sensitizing substance that is found in many common building materials, such as particleboard, pressed wood, and interior plywood. It can also be found in caulks and adhesives, in paint, in furniture and permanent pressed fabrics, floor coverings, and in many cleaning products, etc. It is even found as a preservative in vaccination serums.
> 
> Products that commonly offgas numerous types of VOCs include caulks and adhesives, perfumes, after-shave lotions, toiletries, shampoos, household cleaners, furniture and furniture polishes, air fresheners, products with synthetic fragrances, fabrics, carpets, foams, plastics, and pesticides.
> 
> IAQ has become much worse over the past few decades. We are bringing more VOC's into our homes and diluting the air with fresh air much less. We are essentially poisoning ourselves as well as destroying our HVAC equipment.


Thanks, I was curious.


----------



## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Understood, apology accepted. I do it all the time myself unfortunately and misread what someone has said. Like I said I was just kidding and was curious about what you think about their comments there. They were also highly concerned about VOCs from the carpet, furniture, etc. in the house.
> 
> I personally thought that was a little to much. Surly a few ppm or ppb compounds in the air shouldn't effect the coil that much? But that is what they say and of course they say their "coating" is supposed to resist it a lot more. Glad we back to normal again.


From what I am hearing, the coating that Carrier is using is preventing formicary corrosion. Just to pick on Carrier a bit, I would be careful about putting coatings on product when I had a secondary heat exchanger with major issues due to a coating that was put on it.

Other manufacturer's are going with all aluminum tube with aluminum fin construction to address formicary corrosion. I hope that both methods work, but that still leaves our homes with VOCs in them. And we wonder why so many children have respiratory issues.

I do agree with Carrier's assessment that we need to air out new homes and homes that have had recent carpets, flooring, cabinets or new furniture installed. I also agree that some sort of air exchange system is needed in today's homes.

Personally, I don't think we address this issue any where near as much as it should be addressed. I've seen heat exchangers rotted out within two seasons from the crap in the air of some homes. Glade plug ins are the absolute worst with any kind of chemical fabric softener in close second.

You want soft, fresh smelling clothes? Use non-scented or dyed detergent, a half cup of baking soda and a half cup of white vinegar for each load. Just be careful to dilute the vinegar and not let it get on dry clothing.


----------



## RoBoTeq

henny said:


> Thanks, I was curious.


If you think about what this stuff can do to coils and heat exchangers, just think what damage it is doing to our respiratory systems. I'm very sensitive to chemical scents and even my skin is sensitive to chemicals. If my clothes are washed in scented products, not only will I have trouble breathing from the fumes, if I perspire, my skin will be adversely affected by that stuff mixing with my sweat.


----------



## KnightRider

Instead of fabric softeners check out "dryer balls". They really work makes the clothes soft and really speed up drying time and use them for years. Check it out.

http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/dryer_balls.html


----------



## RoBoTeq

KnightRider said:


> Instead of fabric softeners check out "dryer balls". They really work makes the clothes soft and really speed up drying time and use them for years. Check it out.
> 
> http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/dryer_balls.html


Seems a bit cruel to give your dryer blue balls, but hey, as long as it makes you more comfy, go for it:thumbsup:


----------

