# Heat Pump Installs with Long Lines Technical Questions



## Joe

I sometimes install heat pumps with tubing runs in the 100 to even 150 foot range. I noticed in the Carrier Infinity heat pump install documents that it is suggested (or directed) that on lines over 100ft, a solenoid valve be placed in the smaller "liquid" line at the compressor when the run exceeds 100ft. I have the following questions please.

1) What is the solenoid supposed to do? In heat pump mode, I am supposing that it keeps the liquid charge inside the inside inside coil from migrating out the line to the outside coil, but I am not sure why this is bad as this does remove heat from the house.

2) In Cooling mode, I am thinking that such a valve would prevent liquid in the outside coil from migrating into the (cooler) inside the house coil. I am thinking this would not be good as it would just have to be pumped out again, but in the process, you might get "slugging" of some liquid out the suction line into the compressor if a lot of the liquid migrated inside.

3) Then third.. If preventing this migration is a good thing, why do the heat pump engineers not just install a second two way expansion valve in the liquid line of the outdoor unit where the two way piston regulator is normally installed? It seems like this would be more efficient in heating mode (particularly if some of the charge has leaked out) and would take care of both problems and not cost any more than a solenoid valve. 

How about someone giving me an education here? Thanks
Joe


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## beenthere

In winter time. It prevents the liquid refrigerant from migrating back and forth between the 2 units. And washing out oil from the outdoor unit. Along with preventing flooding the compressor with liquid during off cycles. The accumulator could fill with liquid without it.

In summer time, it does the same basic thing. Keeps the indoor coil from becoming flooded with liquid, and then slugging liquid back to the compressor.


Since its the installing company that buys the solenoid valve, and the end customer that pays for it on those installs. The manufacturers aren't going to add extra cost to all units.


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## Joe

Thanks for the explanation. Would a second two way expansion valve mounted external to the outdoor unit on the liquid line be even better than using a solenoid valve?


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## RoBoTeq

The solenoid valve holds a higher pressure of liquid refrigerant between the compressor back flow preventer and the solenoid which provides the initial higher pressure on start up to open the TXV.


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## Joe

In a heat pump, the bidirectional indoor TXV is only operational as a TXV in cooling mode. In heating mode, the indoor TXV acts as a check valve and simply opens fully whenever refrigerant flow in the HEATING mode is called for. A piston orifice in the outdoor unit of a heat pump normally provides the TXV function for the outdoor coil when operating in HEAT PUMP mode.

I am thinking that the solenoid valve is recommended to prevent refrigerant flow BACK into the outdoor unit and thru the piston orifice in winter when the machine is IDLE and in HEAT PUMP mode. This is when the outdoor unit is colder than the indoor coil and so refrigerant will tend to migrate backward thru the bidirectional expansion valve and into the outdoor coil. Thus possibly providing a "slugging" opportunity when the heat pump is started up in winter time.

Actually, I do not think I have seen a recommendation for a solenoid valve for an air conditioning only system.

An expansion valve is a more efficient metering device than a piston/orifice expansion device I am told. I have seen it suggested that replacing the outdoor piston/orifice and solenoid valve with a TXV at the outdoor unit (where the solenoid would be installed) is more efficient than the piston/orifice and that the second bidirectional expansion valve also will provide the function of the solenoid valve and prevent backflow into the outdoor coil when the system is IDLE in HEAT PUMP mode. Is this true??

Am I missing something here?


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## RoBoTeq

Joe said:


> In a heat pump, the bidirectional indoor TXV is only operational as a TXV in cooling mode. In heating mode, the indoor TXV acts as a check valve and simply opens fully whenever refrigerant flow in the HEATING mode is called for. A piston orifice in the outdoor unit of a heat pump normally provides the TXV function for the outdoor coil when operating in HEAT PUMP mode.
> 
> I am thinking that the solenoid valve is recommended to prevent refrigerant flow BACK into the outdoor unit and thru the piston orifice in winter when the machine is IDLE and in HEAT PUMP mode. This is when the outdoor unit is colder than the indoor coil and so refrigerant will tend to migrate backward thru the bidirectional expansion valve and into the outdoor coil. Thus possibly providing a "slugging" opportunity when the heat pump is started up in winter time.
> 
> Actually, I do not think I have seen a recommendation for a solenoid valve for an air conditioning only system.
> 
> An expansion valve is a more efficient metering device than a piston/orifice expansion device I am told. I have seen it suggested that replacing the outdoor piston/orifice and solenoid valve with a TXV at the outdoor unit (where the solenoid would be installed) is more efficient than the piston/orifice and that the second bidirectional expansion valve also will provide the function of the solenoid valve and prevent backflow into the outdoor coil when the system is IDLE in HEAT PUMP mode. Is this true??
> 
> Am I missing something here?


 It's not this complicated. The only reason for the solenoid valve is to maintain a solid line of higher pressure liquid in the liquid line so that the compressor does not have to try to compress a lot of gas before the txv will open.


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## beenthere

> and that the second bidirectional expansion valve also will provide the function of the solenoid valve and prevent backflow into the outdoor coil when the system is IDLE in HEAT PUMP mode. Is this true??


No it is not.


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## costello

Make sure you use the carrier valve as it is a byflow valve and you have to put the arrown facing the condenser as well for it to work.. I found out the hard way that you can not just buy a standard one and think it will work on a heat pump. I have a customer that has 12 of 200' foot lineset and he has them on all of them the ones that did not have them when got there have had there compressors replaced.


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## repj2y

Are you serious ? I've never heard of a line-set longer than 50' if at all
possible! Talk to your manufacturer engineering department ! Bohn
Engineering will not honor any warranty what so ever if a line set is longer than 50 ft. The primary reason: insufficient oil return and premature compressor failure. Even if you can prove installing U-traps 
every 21' of vertical lift. No cigar ! If you do find an existing system amongst your customer base; I would still call your manufacturers engineering department.


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## beenthere

ICP approved and designed 180 foot line set for a 7.5 ton A/C
York Approved and designed 88 foot line set for a 2 ton A/C
Trane Approved 170 foot line set for a 40 ton condenser and barrel
York Approved 72 foot line set for a 7.5 ton heat pump


And I've done more long line sets then those. Those are just the few I remember off the top of my head. Oil return is not the concern on heat pumps. Not having the liquid refrigerant over flowing the accumulator is on heat pumps. 


Oh, and I use to work on some old GE 20 ton splits, that had a vertical up to the condenser of 120 foot, and no traps were in the lines. This was a GE design. And 26 years later, still had the original compressor in it.

Long line sets are more common then people realize.


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## repj2y

Like I said: Talk to the Mfgs' Engineering depart. on any new installs. Dual suction
risers with pressure actuated -or-electrical operated unloaders are installed all the time. I've been installing them for years ! I'm talking best practice. You can
actually do what you want on any installation. Your name is behind it.
I'm very informed about reference tables for equivalent length of feet. They have
tables up to 500' ! There are many cases everywhere because of the architecture
design, which; decide the basis of the installation. Based on the rapid advances
in Bldg. automation, equipment, commercial applications etc; there comes time
when you should be preparing your customer for an upgrade ! It doesn't matter
that 26 yrs. accumulated on any system. That's attributed to good maintenance
practices, and; keeping records to spot trends before failures.


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## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> ICP approved and designed 180 foot line set for a 7.5 ton A/C
> York Approved and designed 88 foot line set for a 2 ton A/C
> Trane Approved 170 foot line set for a 40 ton condenser and barrel
> York Approved 72 foot line set for a 7.5 ton heat pump
> 
> 
> And I've done more long line sets then those. Those are just the few I remember off the top of my head. Oil return is not the concern on heat pumps. Not having the liquid refrigerant over flowing the accumulator is on heat pumps.
> 
> 
> Oh, and I use to work on some old GE 20 ton splits, that had a vertical up to the condenser of 120 foot, and no traps were in the lines. This was a GE design. And 26 years later, still had the original compressor in it.
> 
> Long line sets are more common then people realize.


JCI brands of horizontal discharge condensing units 1-1/2 to 5 ton approved for 200' linesets out of the box.


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## repj2y

I probably should of said: line sets longer than 50' are not common in residential cooling in Florida. I've worked in every corner of the state. What the mid-states used for heat pumps I'm aware of used R-500; azeotropic blend of 80% R-22. We can't run heat pumps below 50* (R-22) in Florida based on no heat transfer near that
point. Auxiliary heat strip would actuate and the unit would be in defrost because of our higher humidity ratios in the winter for Florida. I was attending a REVCO Scientific class in Ashville, N.C. in 1987. The instructor kept arguing we run our units
to 0* ! Well; not with R-22 ! What blends are you using now? Check valves seem to be the standard implemented vs solenoids.


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## costello

yes these are infinity r-410 systems and carrier has said that the line set is ok with the length and the size. You just can not bury them underground for that long. They lose all there heat in heat mode and don't do anything.


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## repj2y

I googled the Carrier Infinity program. I found alot complaints from both technicians and home owners about the 2 stage systems. But; who knows if the system was installed correctly with the home owner given ample time to really learn how to operate it ! I sometimes have to
catch myself when I start talking tech. info to a home owner and they're
doing this :no: !


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> It doesn't matter
> that 26 yrs. accumulated on any system. That's attributed to good maintenance
> practices, and; keeping records to spot trends before failures.


Those units had hardly any maintainence done to them,.

Most fears about long line sets are from listening to people that have very little if any experience with long line sets(not implying anything toward you).

If its not over 100 foot. I don't worry about its length. Unless it has a large vertical in it.

Main point, is there isn't as much of a limit to line set lengths as people think.

Running them underground, has more hazards then just having a long line set.


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> I probably should of said: line sets longer than 50' are not common in residential cooling in Florida. I've worked in every corner of the state. What the mid-states used for heat pumps I'm aware of used R-500; azeotropic blend of 80% R-22. We can't run heat pumps below 50* (R-22) in Florida based on no heat transfer near that
> point. Auxiliary heat strip would actuate and the unit would be in defrost because of our higher humidity ratios in the winter for Florida. I was attending a REVCO Scientific class in Ashville, N.C. in 1987. The instructor kept arguing we run our units
> to 0* ! Well; not with R-22 ! What blends are you using now? Check valves seem to be the standard implemented vs solenoids.


The refrigerant has no bearing. The outdoor coil will be the same temp no matter which refrigerant you use.


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## repj2y

I'm actually referring to heating mode. Outside temps in mid-states like
Tenn. are very low. What would you set the cross-ambient thermostat at ? You'd be in defrost so frequent; a heat pump would be useless !
I think I've seen enough refrigerant charts to know condensing temps are
the same no matter what refrigerant.


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## beenthere

Tenn is any colder then my area. And we have lots of heat pumps. Defrost is either time and temp, or on demand. And temps staying in the 20's or teens for days weeks at a time is not unusual. 

After the coil gets X cold, yes it will go into defrost every 30, 60, or 90 minutes of compressor accumulated run time on time and temp boards. With on demand, it will only go into defrost when the liquid line temp and the ambient air temp have a great enough temp difference.




> The instructor kept arguing we run our units
> to 0* ! Well; not with R-22 ! What blends are you using now?


If you know the refrigerant temps are the same, then why did you post the above?

They use R22 heat pumps in areas that are in the single digits for weeks at a time.


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> I'm actually referring to heating mode. Outside temps in mid-states like
> Tenn. are very low. What would you set the cross-ambient thermostat at ? You'd be in defrost so frequent; a heat pump would be useless !
> I think I've seen enough refrigerant charts to know condensing temps are
> the same no matter what refrigerant.


Cross ambient? Guess you mean lock out temp for the compressor/ heat pump.

No reason to lock out a heat pump. Until its COP drops low enough that it becomes less efficient then electric resistance heat. Some heat pumps maintain a high enough COP, that they still produce more heat at -10°F for less money then resistance heat, that even with the cost of defrost cycles, its cheaper to let it run.


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## repj2y

if you're in heat mode; your outdoor coil (Evap) w/R22 @ 68 suction is a
40* coil inside temp. If your outdoor ambient temperature is 40* ! 
you have no temperature difference. You have no heat transfer period !
And you're telling me you run heat pumps below -10* F !

You're outdoor coil is probably blocked-up and you have zippo!
If your winter design temp. is 40* in your area; you're better off with
a gas furnace ! 

When you're in defrost; you're back in cooling mode with the auxillary heater still on to off-set the cool air. !


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## repj2y

On Heat pumps: It's temperature difference between the inside coil and the outside temperature period ! And again: It doesn't matter what refrigerant you want to use, but;
the one that will give me the greatest temp. difference is
the one I prefer !


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> if you're in heat mode; your outdoor coil (Evap) w/R22 @ 68 suction is a
> 40* coil inside temp. If your outdoor ambient temperature is 40* !
> you have no temperature difference. You have no heat transfer period !
> And you're telling me you run heat pumps below -10* F !
> 
> You're outdoor coil is probably blocked-up and you have zippo!
> If your winter design temp. is 40* in your area; you're better off with
> a gas furnace !
> 
> When you're in defrost; you're back in cooling mode with the auxillary heater still on to off-set the cool air. !


I'm in beenthere's area and we use heat pumps efficiently in sub zero weather. It's rare that it gets that cold here, but when it does, heat pumps still have a better heat coefficiency then does auxilliary electric heat and adds at least some lesser cost to product heat to the home.


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## repj2y

I'm not disputeing the heat strip factor. 57lbs on R22 is icing. I set unloaders at 60 psi. If you're having sheet ice on the outdoor coil blocking the air. How long do you think the defrost cycles on ?
Over the length of run time; gas would be the way to go. Check with some of your customers with a heat pump app. and one
with gas heat. Ask them about their bill in the winter; I'm curious.

What do you have in your home ?


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> if you're in heat mode; your outdoor coil (Evap) w/R22 @ 68 suction is a
> 40* coil inside temp. If your outdoor ambient temperature is 40* !
> you have no temperature difference. You have no heat transfer period !
> And you're telling me you run heat pumps below -10* F !
> 
> You're outdoor coil is probably blocked-up and you have zippo!
> If your winter design temp. is 40* in your area; you're better off with
> a gas furnace !
> 
> When you're in defrost; you're back in cooling mode with the auxillary heater still on to off-set the cool air. !



Sorry, but you don't understand how a heat pump works.

I have dual fuels installed, that the heat pump heats the house with outdoor temps as low as 20°F. The furnace takes over after the outdoor temp drops below 20. Those customers are saving lots of money over using gas heat above 20 degrees outdoor temp.

With R22, if my saturated evap(outdoor coil) is 40°F, then my outside temp is around 50.


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> I'm not disputeing the heat strip factor. 57lbs on R22 is icing. I set unloaders at 60 psi. If you're having sheet ice on the outdoor coil blocking the air. How long do you think the defrost cycles on ?
> Over the length of run time; gas would be the way to go. Check with some of your customers with a heat pump app. and one
> with gas heat. Ask them about their bill in the winter; I'm curious.
> 
> What do you have in your home ?


Your over looking the fact that at 40°F 80%RH outdoor conditions, there isn't a lot of moisture actually in the air. So they don't freeze up as fast as you think. At the temp, they actually defrost themselves during their off time.

At an outdoor condition of 30°F and 90%RH, there is even less moisture in the air then at 40°F and 80%RH. So again, the frost build up is not as quick as you think.


Just started up a dual fuel Friday. Oil is the fossil fuel. Then heat pump heats the house down to an outdoor temp of 25°F.


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> I'm not disputeing the heat strip factor. 57lbs on R22 is icing. I set unloaders at 60 psi. If you're having sheet ice on the outdoor coil blocking the air. How long do you think the defrost cycles on ?
> Over the length of run time; gas would be the way to go. Check with some of your customers with a heat pump app. and one
> with gas heat. Ask them about their bill in the winter; I'm curious.
> 
> What do you have in your home ?


Where does the moisture come from on subfreezing days to produce ice? Heat pumps ice up less during subfreezing temperatures.

I currently have a POS oil boiler which I am in the process of changing to a heat pump system. In my previous house, I installed a heat pump on top of the oil furnace but never rehooked up the oil furnace.


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## repj2y

That's Funny ! Too much data out there to shoot that down !
No matter what humidity ratios you deal with ! 
Wow ! Alot of data out there supporting the fact the efficiency drops
significantly @ 35 * OD Temp ! You never mentioned dual fuel !
Why would you use another fuel if the heat pump is such a great thing ! My father had a carrier heat pump in Huntsville, Ala.
He actually bought a wood burner stove for down stairs; installed a
ventilating fan. Ran great and shut the heat pump down! (R-500) !

I guess if I lived in your area, a package A/C with gas would be my
option. This forum is interesting to see what others do in different
markets.


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## beenthere

repj2y said:


> That's Funny ! Too much data out there to shoot that down !
> No matter what humidity ratios you deal with !
> Wow ! Alot of data out there supporting the fact the efficiency drops
> significantly @ 35 * OD Temp !
> 
> Yes it does drop, but not as much as you think. At 0°F many heat pumps still have COPs above 1.5, and that still makes them cheaper to use the electric resistance heat on, nat gas, or oil in my area.
> 
> You never mentioned dual fuel !
> 
> Mentioned it to show you how heat pumps cost less to heat with then fossil fuels.
> 
> 
> Why would you use another fuel if the heat pump is such a great thing !
> 
> Because in my area the cooling load isn't big enough to size teh heat pump to handle teh heating load down to 0°F.
> 
> 
> My father had a carrier heat pump in Huntsville, Ala.
> He actually bought a wood burner stove for down stairs; installed a
> ventilating fan. Ran great and shut the heat pump down! (R-500) !
> 
> An R500 heat pump wasn't a real high efficiency heat pump. And often, wood is cheap enough or free, so that it becomes a far more economical way to heat.
> 
> I guess if I lived in your area, a package A/C with gas would be my
> option. This forum is interesting to see what others do in different
> markets.


They also make packaged dual fuel heat pumps.


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> That's Funny ! Too much data out there to shoot that down !
> No matter what humidity ratios you deal with !
> Wow ! Alot of data out there supporting the fact the efficiency drops
> significantly @ 35 * OD Temp ! You never mentioned dual fuel !
> Why would you use another fuel if the heat pump is such a great thing ! My father had a carrier heat pump in Huntsville, Ala.
> He actually bought a wood burner stove for down stairs; installed a
> ventilating fan. Ran great and shut the heat pump down! (R-500) !
> 
> I guess if I lived in your area, a package A/C with gas would be my
> option. This forum is interesting to see what others do in different
> markets.


You seem to be deliberately trying to make us think you are a bit dense. Did you miss the fact that I never hooked up my oil furnace to operate after I installed the heat pump?

Heat pumps have a higher capacity then the cooling capacity when temperatures are above 47 degrees. At 17 degrees, a heat pump is running at about half of the rated capacity, but still creating efficient heat.


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## repj2y

It's starting to seem like you would argue with a stop sign -or- a Torgue
wrench ! 
I see going "Green", 50 % off your electric bill ! on service trucks.
"What a joke" ! They're are so many testimonials in this industry; you
better back it up with accurate data.
A homeowner sued a contractor in Tampa, Florida for a twice the tonnage required by the building code. Guess what: Contractor Lost in
the neighborhood of $15,000 ! I really don't care what your freakin
numbers are: I can back any system I put in with data. You're in
different temp. zone and I'm in the highest humidity ratio in the
country. What flys for you; doesn't work down here. Period !
Move down here and find out ! Maybe your a wholesale rep. cuz you
can't fix a flat tire !


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## beenthere

Quillayute, Washington has a higher humidity ratio then you do(they are the highest in the continental USA). And guess what, they use heat pumps there.


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> It's starting to seem like you would argue with a stop sign -or- a Torgue
> wrench !
> I see going "Green", 50 % off your electric bill ! on service trucks.
> "What a joke" ! They're are so many testimonials in this industry; you
> better back it up with accurate data.
> A homeowner sued a contractor in Tampa, Florida for a twice the tonnage required by the building code. Guess what: Contractor Lost in
> the neighborhood of $15,000 ! I really don't care what your freakin
> numbers are: I can back any system I put in with data. You're in
> different temp. zone and I'm in the highest humidity ratio in the
> country. What flys for you; doesn't work down here. Period !
> Move down here and find out ! Maybe your a wholesale rep. cuz you
> can't fix a flat tire !


Actually, as a wholesale rep, I teach those willing to learn, unlike you seem to be.

Here's the bottom line; heat pumps work in subfreezing weather no matter where they are located.


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## beenthere

jazzi be said:


> that guy is rippin you off, that "flame rod" is actually a thermocouple, it's a $10 part and takes seriously 2 or 3 minutes to put in, and he's lyin about sanding off the thermocouple will introduce metal particles into the system,call someone else


I thought this was a heat pump with long line sets discussion.

But a flame rod is not a thermocouple, as it produces no power/voltage.


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## RoBoTeq

I'm thinking jazzi be is a spammer.


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## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> Actually, as a wholesale rep, I teach those willing to learn, unlike you seem to be.
> 
> Here's the bottom line; heat pumps work in subfreezing weather no matter where they are located.


Subfreezing Temps ! Yea right ! You need to read the 2nd Law of Thermal Dynamics ! Re-read my original posts ! Below 40*=Zippo !
Enough zippo to use another source that's worth it ! (I know what you're
going to say! ) Here's the bottom line:

"Would you give Spanish Fly" -to- "a nymphomaniac"!
There's pumping, but; you're only feeling the heat of compassion !:laughing:


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> Subfreezing Temps ! Yea right ! You need to read the 2nd Law of Thermal Dynamics ! Re-read my original posts ! Below 40*=Zippo !
> Enough zippo to use another source that's worth it ! (I know what you're
> going to say! ) Here's the bottom line:
> 
> "Would you give Spanish Fly" -to- "a nymphomaniac"!
> There's pumping, but; you're only feeling the heat of compassion !:laughing:


I'm not really sure what you are trying to say, only that it is wrong.


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## repj2y

*Heat pumps*

You're right. I apologize. I probably used the wrong analogy.

but; still read the 2nd law of thermal dynamics.

I know very well how heat pumps work. I put enough of them in.
I still remember when the RVR was energized only in heat mode. 
Since the valve sat there idle for 9 months out of the yr.; Mfgrs. changed it to energized in cooling mode. Too many stuck valves !
When you're trying to reach set-point (72* where I live) in the winter; in
addition to heat loss from the home. (no matter how efficient !) I think
the little efficiency below 40 * renders it thumbs down !
Call a big licensed Florida contractor anywhere in the state: they'll tell
you the same ! You're website has been a big discussion @ A/C
supply houses. And Guess what: They agree on what I've stated
If I lived in your neighborhood; I would talk most people out of them !
I been working on Cryrogenic refrigeration for over 25 yrs ! I think I know what I'm talking about. My 1900 hrs of refrigeration class took
me 2 yrs. to complete full-time in 1970's ! I'm not as dense as you
think I am


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## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> You're right. I apologize. I probably used the wrong analogy.
> 
> but; still read the 2nd law of thermal dynamics.
> 
> I know very well how heat pumps work. I put enough of them in.
> I still remember when the RVR was energized only in heat mode.
> Since the valve sat there idle for 9 months out of the yr.; Mfgrs. changed it to energized in cooling mode. Too many stuck valves !
> When you're trying to reach set-point (72* where I live) in the winter; in
> addition to heat loss from the home. (no matter how efficient !) I think
> the little efficiency below 40 * renders it thumbs down !
> Call a big licensed Florida contractor anywhere in the state: they'll tell
> you the same ! You're website has been a big discussion @ A/C
> supply houses. And Guess what: They agree on what I've stated
> If I lived in your neighborhood; I would talk most people out of them !
> I been working on Cryrogenic refrigeration for over 25 yrs ! I think I know what I'm talking about. My 1900 hrs of refrigeration class took
> me 2 yrs. to complete full-time in 1970's ! I'm not as dense as you
> think I am


 When you keep stating that heat pumps are useless below 40 degrees, I'm afraid you are as dense as I think you are....sorry:no:

The second law of thermodynamics has nothing to do with what you are trying to claim. 

A standard old 3 ton 13 SEER heat pump will produce about 34,000 Btu of heat at 47 degrees outdoor temps and about 22,000 Btu of heat at 17 degrees outdoor temp. Even at 17 degrees there is a COP of about 2.5. That means that for every watt of energy that goes into running the heat pump, 2.5 watts of heat are produced.

How is this not more efficient then straight electric resistance heating of 1 watt in and 1 watt out?


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## JimJ

Why do I think he has no idea about what your saying?:icon_rolleyes:


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## repj2y

There you go with 47* !
I said below 40 * !
Florida Power and Light: The biggest Utility in the State is adamant at setting the control. Lock-out temp, cross ambient, stat
Ranco makes alot of them! The installer is informed to set at 41* by a
P.E. to switch what-ever the back-up heat mode is. That is mandated by code ! They know there is heat no heat transfer at that temp. ! You
got sub-freezing temps! Where's the heat source coming from?
COP ! What a laugh ! Co-efficent to what? No heat ! Burn a bag
of charcoal and choke on it ! Rub your legs together; maybe you'll get
sparks ! Heat flows from a higher temp. to a lower temp! You're getting
heat @ 35* ! Maybe on fantasy Island -or- the yellow brick road.
40* inside coil temp on R22 gives you 60* air period! You're in heat mode
and 40* outside air ! You're telling me heat transfer exist ! Even heat
of compression is really not measureable ! Stay a wholesale rep. !


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## repj2y

I forgot to say: Can you actually feel 2.5 watts of heat ? My flash light is
warmer than that !


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## JimJ

repj2y said:


> There you go with 47* !
> I said below 40 * !
> Florida Power and Light: The biggest Utility in the State is adamant at setting the control. Lock-out temp, cross ambient, stat
> Ranco makes alot of them! The installer is informed to set at 41* by a
> P.E. to switch what-ever the back-up heat mode is. That is mandated by code ! They know there is heat no heat transfer at that temp. ! You
> got sub-freezing temps! Where's the heat source coming from?
> COP ! What a laugh ! Co-efficent to what? No heat ! Burn a bag
> of charcoal and choke on it ! Rub your legs together; maybe you'll get
> sparks ! Heat flows from a higher temp. to a lower temp! You're getting
> heat @ 35* ! Maybe on fantasy Island -or- the yellow brick road.
> 40* inside coil temp on R22 gives you 60* air period! You're in heat mode
> and 40* outside air ! You're telling me heat transfer exist ! Even heat
> of compression is really not measureable ! Stay a wholesale rep. !


 

The design temp in my area of the country is 33*, we are 90% HP and we do not install supplemental heat ( strips) and yet we have no issues . Could you please explain that? And yes we do hit our design temps about 1% of our heating hours.



> 40* inside coil temp on R22 gives you 60* air period! You're in heat mode
> and 40* outside air ! You're telling me heat transfer exist !


Please tell me your smarter than this?


----------



## JimJ

repj2y said:


> I forgot to say: Can you actually feel 2.5 watts of heat ? My flash light is
> warmer than that !


Lite 8 or 9 kitchen matches and put your hand over them. Can you feel any heat? Thats about 2.5 watts of heat.

Did you have to move your hand? LOL:laughing:


----------



## RoBoTeq

Obviously repj2y is just playing the fool. Seeing that he completely ignored that the 2.5 watt of heat from each watt of energy is at 17 degrees outdoor temps.

I think it is safe to put repj2y in the place of a character that Michael Moriarity played in a movie called Stuff. At one point someone tells Moriarity's character that he ain't as dumb as he looks. To which, Moriarity replies; "No one is as dumb as I look."

No one can be as dumb as repj2y is posting. Reminds me of a certain fat guy at low tide.


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> Obviously repj2y is just playing the fool. Seeing that he completely ignored that the 2.5 watt of heat from each watt of energy is at 17 degrees outdoor temps.
> 
> I think it is safe to put repj2y in the place of a character that Michael Moriarity played in a movie called Stuff. At one point someone tells Moriarity's character that he ain't as dumb as he looks. To which, Moriarity replies; "No one is as dumb as I look."
> 
> No one can be as dumb as repj2y is posting. Reminds me of a certain fat guy at low tide.


http://www.solarcompanies.com/how_do_air_heat_pumps_work

Here's one for Robostent ! You do need one in your carotid artery so
you can comprehend what you read !

Top that off with http://www.byoh.com/heatpumps.htm:cry::blink:


----------



## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> I'm thinking jazzi be is a spammer.


Yep, I saw after I posted that, that he made non sense post in a bunch of other threads.


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> I been working on Cryrogenic refrigeration for over 25 yrs ! I think I know what I'm talking about. My 1900 hrs of refrigeration class took
> me 2 yrs. to complete full-time in 1970's ! I'm not as dense as you
> think I am


Doesn't mean you know anything about how a heat pump really works. And from your other post, its evident that you don't.

Lots of heat pumps are still running above a COP at 17°F outdoor temp.


----------



## repj2y

beenthere said:


> Doesn't mean you know anything about how a heat pump really works. And from your other post, its evident that you don't.
> 
> Lots of heat pumps are still running above a COP at 17°F outdoor temp.


Doesn't mean ditto for you too! Beenthere screw that and Robostent !
Two moderators that not only pounce on posters, and it's obvious you
both live here ! But actually inform others on stuff that not 100%
accurate.
I'm sure there is a big reason why not many people posts on this site. There is so much documented data out there to shoot your
garbage down ! That's a good thing about life; people have choices.
"Been there screw that"


----------



## beenthere

I'm not a moderator here. Don't think Roboteq is either. So that is more miss information you are posting.

You seem to have a problem posting real data/facts about heat pumps that prove anything your saying. But rather just say things you have heard/been told. By your own admission, you live in an area that doesn't get the cold temps that we do. But yet, try and tell us how they won't work in our areas. 

Your opinion of them is obviously closed. And you don't want to hear the truth, or find out that your wrong about them. 



> if you're in heat mode; your outdoor coil (Evap) w/R22 @ 68 suction is a
> 40* coil inside temp. If your outdoor ambient temperature is 40* !
> you have no temperature difference. You have no heat transfer period


 Not even close to being true.

And you resort to name calling, to try and make yourself sound more authoritative and knowledgeable on them then you are. This is something that never works, and makes anything you say non believable to others that read what you post.




> The installer is informed to set at 41* by a
> P.E. to switch what-ever the back-up heat mode is. That is mandated by code !


Please recite the code article number in Florida that mandates a 41°F lock out temp. So that I can ask some people from Florida if they ever heard of it, and if its code in their area.


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> http://www.solarcompanies.com/how_do_air_heat_pumps_work
> 
> Here's one for Robostent ! You do need one in your carotid artery so
> you can comprehend what you read !
> 
> Top that off with http://www.byoh.com/heatpumps.htm:cry::blink:


 Well, only one of the links worked, and all that did was to reiterate what I stated about getting more heat wattage then energy wattage expended out of heat pumps. Even at zero degrees, a 13 SEER heat pump is providing 1.5 watts of heat for every watt of energy used.

The article also states what we all know, which is that the heat pump alone cannot supply all of the heating below a certain set point. In my last house, that set point was 32 degrees. That is when I had to supplement the heat. I used a wood stove. Others use fossil fuel systems such as an oil or gas furnace or boiler with a hot water coil. Even with using straight electric resistance heat to "supplement" the more efficient heat pump, the heat pump is still operating efficiently.

I'm wondering if repj2y has ever been out of Florida to understand that he has no clue as to what he is talking about.


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y doesn't seem to know much of anything, does he?

Probably part of the Florida Clemens clan.


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> repj2y doesn't seem to know much of anything, does he?
> 
> Probably part of the Florida Clemens clan.


You're both funny !
You both still haven't explained how you get additional heat in reverse cycle below 40* ! You keep saying we run in sub-freezing temps. down to 25* ! Wow, that's impressive ! I suppose you're auxillary heat is sleeping ! You rank on me about being dense, etc. Again you don't
understand the 2nd Law of Thermal dynamics prevails. If you're such a
smarty pants; why don't you call a registered P.E. who specilaizes in
thermal applications and asked them ! Call a university engineer and they'll explain it to you !
I receive a AHRI document on all my equipment stating the SEER,
EER, HSPF, to present to my customers to prove they comply with the
Florida Power & Light energy rebates for that particular equipment.
Straight cool -or- Heat Pump. Not every county in Florida is powered by
FP & L ! 41* -or- 40* on the cut-off control keeps them in the HSPF
rating to receive their rebate ! Some county inspectors do check that
document rating with the building permit !
Go smoke something ! What a crock of you know what !


----------



## beenthere

Lots of heat in what you call cold air. At 28°F 65%RH, there is 8.91 BTUs per pound of air. Considering that a heat pump moves a lot more air then 400 CFM through the outdoor coil. It can absorb a lot of that heat, and move it to the inside coil.

On electric aux heat units, the strips come on at low temps. But are not needed for the whole heating call.

On dual fuels, some run down into the teens without needing aux heat, some only down to 30. Depends on the house and how the heat pump was sized.

Have one of your PEs come here and post why he "thinks" they don't work below 41.


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> You're both funny !
> You both still haven't explained how you get additional heat in reverse cycle below 40* ! You keep saying we run in sub-freezing temps. down to 25* ! Wow, that's impressive ! I suppose you're auxillary heat is sleeping ! You rank on me about being dense, etc. Again you don't
> understand the 2nd Law of Thermal dynamics prevails. If you're such a
> smarty pants; why don't you call a registered P.E. who specilaizes in
> thermal applications and asked them ! Call a university engineer and they'll explain it to you !
> I receive a AHRI document on all my equipment stating the SEER,
> EER, HSPF, to present to my customers to prove they comply with the
> Florida Power & Light energy rebates for that particular equipment.
> Straight cool -or- Heat Pump. Not every county in Florida is powered by
> FP & L ! 41* -or- 40* on the cut-off control keeps them in the HSPF
> rating to receive their rebate ! Some county inspectors do check that
> document rating with the building permit !
> Go smoke something ! What a crock of you know what !


 Aren't you a bit old to be acting so immature? Or is that just the way maintenance guys act?

All heat pumps are rated at 17 degrees and at 47 degrees. Maybe if you read a manual you'd know that. Even if you were just reciting theory, you don't understand what you are reciting. Please...please tell us how you think the second law of thermodynamics in any way proves this ridiculous thing you are claiming.


----------



## RoBoTeq

beenthere said:


> Lots of heat in what you call cold air. At 28°F 65%RH, there is 8.91 BTUs per pound of air. Considering that a heat pump moves a lot more air then 400 CFM through the outdoor coil. It can absorb a lot of that heat, and move it to the inside coil.
> 
> On electric aux heat units, the strips come on at low temps. But are not needed for the whole heating call.
> 
> On dual fuels, some run down into the teens without needing aux heat, some only down to 30. Depends on the house and how the heat pump was sized.
> 
> Have one of your PEs come here and post why he "thinks" they don't work below 41.


repj2y is just playing us. He's my age and a facilities manager. He can't possibly be as lame as he is coming off.


----------



## beenthere

RoBoTeq said:


> repj2y is just playing us. He's my age and a facilities manager. He can't possibly be as lame as he is coming off.



I hope he isn't.


----------



## repj2y

I never really said there wasn't any heat ! @ 40* ! Just not enough of
it to make it useful enough fast ! There's no load to pump !

If you're running a compressor; (depending on size) New one 9-15-amps !
Take 15 amps (3.5 ton) 15 amps X 240 V = 3600 watts. I don't
think burning 3600 watts is worth the residual heat that is barely pumping back into the house !

BTW: I service 3 stage 90*C low-temp. freezers in hospitals ! Guess what ? The blood platelets, amputated limbs, and bone grafts still have
heat in them @ 200* below zero ! Your next grandchild might come from
those freezers ! So be nice to me:yes: ! I'm not a Facilities Mgr.
I'm an ex-F.A.A. Tech. A/C-Engine Generator, UPS switch gear specialists etc. etc. Gov't employees are a weird group. It took me
two tours to figure that out ! But; who's laughing now (besides you guys) !


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> Aren't you a bit old to be acting so immature? Or is that just the way maintenance guys act?
> 
> All heat pumps are rated at 17 degrees and at 47 degrees. Maybe if you read a manual you'd know that. Even if you were just reciting theory, you don't understand what you are reciting. Please...please tell us how you think the second law of thermodynamics in any way proves this ridiculous thing you are claiming.


Homework assignment for ROBOTeq:

On first available 40* day!; shut-off all your aux. heating sources, defrost
cycle too. Place a digital thermometer in the Air Handler discharge and
place your heat mode operation on ! Wait 10-15 minutes and tell me what
your discharge temperature is ! I'm curious ! Is it not 60* for R-22 ?
Don't feed me all the math. watts per BTU etc etc. Just tell me
the temp. ! Don't run your wife's hair dryer on the outside. After
the reading; tell me what your outdoor coil looks like ! What's the
amp draw on the compressor ? Are you cold yet? -or- are you looking
for wood ? Don't you dare take your coleman pocket warmer out there ! Share your readings ! I'm sure JimJ wants to know !


----------



## repj2y

repj2y said:


> Homework assignment for ROBOTeq:
> 
> On first available 40* day!; shut-off all your aux. heating sources, defrost
> cycle too. Place a digital thermometer in the Air Handler discharge and
> place your heat mode operation on ! Wait 10-15 minutes and tell me what
> your discharge temperature is ! I'm curious ! Is it not 60* for R-22 ?
> Don't feed me all the math. watts per BTU etc etc. Just tell me
> the temp. ! Don't run your wife's hair dryer on the outside. After
> the reading; tell me what your outdoor coil looks like ! What's the
> amp draw on the compressor ? Are you cold yet? -or- are you looking
> for wood ? Don't you dare take your coleman pocket warmer out there ! Share your readings ! I'm sure JimJ wants to know !


This will prove the 2nd Law of thermal dynamics ! Don't tell me
it's 120* discharge temp !


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> Homework assignment for ROBOTeq:
> 
> On first available 40* day!; shut-off all your aux. heating sources, defrost
> cycle too. Place a digital thermometer in the Air Handler discharge and
> place your heat mode operation on ! Wait 10-15 minutes and tell me what
> your discharge temperature is ! I'm curious ! Is it not 60* for R-22 ?
> Don't feed me all the math. watts per BTU etc etc. Just tell me
> the temp. ! Don't run your wife's hair dryer on the outside. After
> the reading; tell me what your outdoor coil looks like ! What's the
> amp draw on the compressor ? Are you cold yet? -or- are you looking
> for wood ? Don't you dare take your coleman pocket warmer out there ! Share your readings ! I'm sure JimJ wants to know !


I don't have a heat pump yet installed in the house I just bought. However, with my previous heat pump, which had no auxilliary heat operational, at 20 degrees outside temperatures would have about a 22 degree temperature rise across the coil. So, if my return air was 68, my supply air was 90.


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> This will prove the 2nd Law of thermal dynamics ! Don't tell me
> it's 120* discharge temp !


If the system were a JCI brand of heat pump with a Yorkguard VI control and a variable speed indoor blower and the heat pump board were set to "hot heat" function, it would actually be closer to 120 degrees.


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> I don't have a heat pump yet installed in the house I just bought. However, with my previous heat pump, which had no auxilliary heat operational, at 20 degrees outside temperatures would have about a 22 degree temperature rise across the coil. So, if my return air was 68, my supply air was 90.


Ok!
The procedure would have to be done on a cold start. Come home; system off. Start it up. Well; one day when you could do it. It would
be interesting where you live. You would have an outside temp. difference and a cold start; just to see how quick the system pulls temp.
without help from recirc. air. Just interested on R-22 in your state


----------



## JimJ

repj2y said:


> Homework assignment for ROBOTeq:
> 
> On first available 40* day!; shut-off all your aux. heating sources, defrost
> cycle too. Place a digital thermometer in the Air Handler discharge and
> place your heat mode operation on ! Wait 10-15 minutes and tell me what
> your discharge temperature is ! I'm curious ! Is it not 60* for R-22 ?
> Don't feed me all the math. watts per BTU etc etc. Just tell me
> the temp. ! Don't run your wife's hair dryer on the outside. After
> the reading; tell me what your outdoor coil looks like ! What's the
> amp draw on the compressor ? Are you cold yet? -or- are you looking
> for wood ? Don't you dare take your coleman pocket warmer out there ! Share your readings ! I'm sure JimJ wants to know !


 
Wednesday we will have a low of 35* and a high of 44* in my city (Lake Havasu City ,Az.). I have thousands of customers with heat pumps and NO SUPPLEMENTAL HEAT. If what you say is true (LOL) I'm in big trouble!


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> This will prove the 2nd Law of thermal dynamics ! Don't tell me
> it's 120* discharge temp !


At 40°F outdoor temp and 70°F indoor temp. I routinely measure heat pump air discharge temps in excess of 90°F. And these are older units, mid 1990's. On newer units, mid tom high 90's, and as Robo said, in excess of 100°F on many JCI heat pumps.

Many newer heat pumps don't go into defrost when its 40°F outside. Any frost they build up is melted by the outdoor temp. And they heat the house without using aux heat at that outdoor temp.


----------



## repj2y

JimJ said:


> Wednesday we will have a low of 35* and a high of 44* in my city (Lake Havasu City ,Az.). I have thousands of customers with heat pumps and NO SUPPLEMENTAL HEAT. If what you say is true (LOL) I'm in big trouble!


You don't have supplemental heat cuz Harry Reid lives there!
I spend time in Zion Park, Utah. I see alot of supplemental heat in
the places I've stayed !


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> I don't have a heat pump yet installed in the house I just bought. However, with my previous heat pump, which had no auxilliary heat operational, at 20 degrees outside temperatures would have about a 22 degree temperature rise across the coil. So, if my return air was 68, my supply air was 90.


Robo;
Is your discharge temp. 22* off the coil mixing with 68* RA ?
Wouldn't that be 46 * air and dropping ?


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> Robo;
> Is your discharge temp. 22* off the coil mixing with 68* RA ?
> Wouldn't that be 46 * air and dropping ?


 No.

A little bit of heat pump 101 for ya; in the heat mode, the "indoor" coil is the condenser.:yes:

Oh, the purpose of the condenser is to release heat from the refrigerant.


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> No.
> 
> A little bit of heat pump 101 for ya; in the heat mode, the "indoor" coil is the condenser.:yes:
> 
> Oh, the purpose of the condenser is to release heat from the refrigerant.


No kidding ?


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> No kidding ?


I'm still waiting for those code articles/sections that require a 41°F lock out of the compressor.


I think you have it back wards. And code may require a strip heater lock out at outdoor temps above 41°F. As the IECC requires electric aux heat to be locked out above a heat pumps balance point temp.


----------



## repj2y

You might be right in some counties. The South Florida energy building code is very long (900 pages) and boring. But you seem to have the time. Why don't you
look it up yourself. Google it. While you're at it; read the Florida Energy code
book amendments that were adopted in 2008. BTW: A couple of investors
down here who have homes in Fisher, Ill. told me ! Their A/C contractors agree on what I've
said ! Below 40 * OD Temp. ! Thumbs down. The porch light is on: but nobody is home !
2 cans of sterno on the dining table will give you 68* heat ! Later HP boy !


----------



## repj2y

repj2y said:


> You might be right in some counties. The South Florida energy building code is very long (900 pages) and boring. But you seem to have the time. Why don't you
> look it up yourself. Google it. While you're at it; read the Florida Energy code
> book amendments that were adopted in 2008. BTW: A couple of investors
> down here who have homes in Fisher, Ill. told me ! Their A/C contractors agree on what I've
> said ! Below 40 * OD Temp. ! Thumbs down. The porch light is on: but nobody is home !
> 2 cans of sterno on the dining table will give you 68* heat ! Later HP boy !


:laughing: :laughing:


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> You might be right in some counties. The South Florida energy building code is very long (900 pages) and boring.
> 
> So you really don't know what the code is. And you just cited something you think you heard.
> 
> 
> 
> But you seem to have the time. Why don't you
> look it up yourself. Google it. While you're at it; read the Florida Energy code
> book amendments that were adopted in 2008.
> 
> Why don't you know them.
> 
> 
> BTW: A couple of investors
> down here who have homes in Fisher, Ill. told me ! Their A/C contractors agree on what I've
> said ! Below 40 * OD Temp. ! Thumbs down.
> 
> Tell those investor friends to have those A/C contractors come here to this site, and tell us that. So we aren't hearing/reading what they may or may not have said third party. Which makes it just hear say.
> 
> 
> The porch light is on: but nobody is home !
> 2 cans of sterno on the dining table will give you 68* heat ! Later HP boy !



You know very little about how a heat pump really works.


----------



## repj2y

beenthere said:


> You know very little about how a heat pump really works.


 You don't understand what you read !
Previous posts stated that the permit has to comply with the energy
rating from AHRI document so the homeowner gets the rebate. The inspector matches the document with the equipment and tells the tech. to start the system blah blah and what other things he might check !
Some counties are more stringent because of the hurricane code ! You
wouldn't believe anything I sent you even if it was notarized by an
engineer. Guess What ! And vice versa !
"Been there has been there" ! But; "was he really there" ? :no:
90 * air from a reverse cycle (I know the indoor coil is the condenser)
from an air source heat pump w/o supplemental heat strip ! from OD
temp. lower than 40 * Really ? Mitsubishi is trying to claim that too !


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> No kidding ?


 I would not kid you.:no:


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> You might be right in some counties. The South Florida energy building code is very long (900 pages) and boring. But you seem to have the time. Why don't you
> look it up yourself. Google it. While you're at it; read the Florida Energy code
> book amendments that were adopted in 2008. BTW: A couple of investors
> down here who have homes in Fisher, Ill. told me ! Their A/C contractors agree on what I've
> said ! Below 40 * OD Temp. ! Thumbs down. The porch light is on: but nobody is home !
> 2 cans of sterno on the dining table will give you 68* heat ! Later HP boy !


This will be a real surprise to my son who lives in Ocala and does not even have auxilliary heaters in his heat pump. He did say that when it got really cold this year that the indoor temps did drop a few degrees.


----------



## RoBoTeq

Since r410a boils at -55.3 degrees F, it is theoretically absorbing heat down to that temperature. There is heat contained in materials down to −459.7°F, however, there must be a change of state from liquid to gas in order for a substance to absorb that heat for practical transfer.

Now, you may be mistaking the fact that R22 boils at -41 degrees, which below that temperature there is no heat transfer going to occur in R22. However, the last I've heard, Florida has not seen -41 degrees in a long time.


----------



## repj2y

RoBoTeq said:


> Since r410a boils at -55.3 degrees F, it is theoretically absorbing heat down to that temperature. There is heat contained in materials down to −459.7°F, however, there must be a change of state from liquid to gas in order for a substance to absorb that heat for practical transfer.
> 
> Now, you may be mistaking the fact that R22 boils at -41 degrees, which below that temperature there is no heat transfer going to occur in R22. However, the last I've heard, Florida has not seen -41 degrees in a long time.


Robo: I've been talking about only about R22 systems all the time. I should've mentioned the refrig. type before responding. Still alot
of R22 systems around. Alot of area contractors are not pushing
410 HP's. They're promoting 16-18 SEER straight cool w/rebates.
It's actually 41* lowside @ 68 lbs ga. on 22
when u approach 57 lbs you're icing up blocking heat transfer !
that's why I've been harping about 41 degrees OD. I'm sure your son meant 41.
Through in the humidity and it multiplies defrost cycles. Look up your R22 chart.
There's still heat, but; not enough for your money on R22. Oh my God: Close my eyes;
"Beenthere" is coming on !  Bring it on Grump Pa !


----------



## RoBoTeq

repj2y said:


> Robo: I've been talking about only about R22 systems all the time. I should've mentioned the refrig. type before responding. Still alot
> of R22 systems around. Alot of area contractors are not pushing
> 410 HP's. They're promoting 16-18 SEER straight cool w/rebates.
> It's actually 41* lowside @ 68 lbs ga. on 22
> when u approach 57 lbs you're icing up blocking heat transfer !
> that's why I've been harping about 41 degrees OD. I'm sure your son meant 41.
> Through in the humidity and it multiplies defrost cycles. Look up your R22 chart.
> There's still heat, but; not enough for your money on R22. Oh my God: Close my eyes;
> "Beenthere" is coming on !  Bring it on Grump Pa !


Nothing in your post here is accurate or even makes any sense. Just where are you seeing 16-18 SEER R22 systems? You do know that new R22 systems are no longer allowed to be produced, don't you?

My son's heat pump, without auxilliary heat whatsoever, operated well down into the low 20's with only a few times losing indoor temperature a few degrees.


----------



## hvaclover

RoBoTeq said:


> Nothing in your post here is accurate or even makes any sense. Just where are you seeing 16-18 SEER R22 systems? You do know that new R22 systems are no longer allowed to be produced, don't you?
> 
> My son's heat pump, without auxilliary heat whatsoever, operated well down into the low 20's with only a few times losing indoor temperature a few degrees.


Arcoaire had a 16 SEER back in 92 that ran on 22.


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> You don't understand what you read !
> Previous posts stated that the permit has to comply with the energy
> rating from AHRI document so the homeowner gets the rebate. The inspector matches the document with the equipment and tells the tech. to start the system blah blah and what other things he might check !
> Some counties are more stringent because of the hurricane code ! You
> wouldn't believe anything I sent you even if it was notarized by an
> engineer. Guess What ! And vice versa !
> "Been there has been there" ! But; "was he really there" ? :no:
> 90 * air from a reverse cycle (I know the indoor coil is the condenser)
> from an air source heat pump w/o supplemental heat strip ! from OD
> temp. lower than 40 * Really ? Mitsubishi is trying to claim that too !


So now its just the inspector. No actual code numbers that you can site/report to us.



Yes, really, 90°F plus air from a heat pump in heat mode when the outdoor temp is below 40°F.

A York 3 ton YZB has a temp rise of 23°F at an indoor temp of 70°F and an outdoor temp, of 30°F. So yes, its has a discharge air temp of 93°F.


----------



## beenthere

repj2y said:


> Robo: I've been talking about only about R22 systems all the time. I should've mentioned the refrig. type before responding. Still alot
> of R22 systems around. Alot of area contractors are not pushing
> 410 HP's. They're promoting 16-18 SEER straight cool w/rebates.
> It's actually 41* lowside @ 68 lbs ga. on 22
> when u approach 57 lbs you're icing up blocking heat transfer !
> that's why I've been harping about 41 degrees OD. I'm sure your son meant 41.
> Through in the humidity and it multiplies defrost cycles. Look up your R22 chart.
> There's still heat, but; not enough for your money on R22. Oh my God: Close my eyes;
> "Beenthere" is coming on !  Bring it on Grump Pa !


A York E1RD036S06 has an air discharge temp of 90°F with an indoor temp of 70°F and an outdoor temp of 30°F. The E1RD is a first generation builder's grade R22 13 SEER heat pump first made in 2005. It runs an evap sat pressure of 42 to 46 PSIG, which is a sat temp of 19 to 22°F. The sat variation is from line set length variations, and indoor air flow variations. Installed a lot of them.


----------



## RoBoTeq

hvaclover said:


> Arcoaire had a 16 SEER back in 92 that ran on 22.


 WHAT? Why wasn't I told?! This is some unnacceptable !


----------



## hvaclover

I tried to tell you but you were busy


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## ironpit

i am new to this website and have been reading the dialogue between "been there", "robotech" and the" rep2jy" guys. I have been in the hvac business for only 10 years. I am nowhere near either of these guys when it comes to hvac. I wish I knew just 10 % of what any of them knows. But that is my reason for being here, today, for the first time. While my previous expertise was not hvac, I did excel in other things.I am a little disappointed in one of the parties, as both his facts and professional demeanor eventually succombed to pressure. His story line resembles my youngst daughters; who is still in college. I am not young. I have worked for a few hvac companies in Indiana, and everyone says that I am good at residential and commercial hvac. Some of the companies have tried to rehire me. My personal opinion is that my lack of hvac knowledge is appalling. I study, ask questions of other techs and surf the net. I know few, if any, hvac people in this area, that are up to what I consider the level that should be required. From proctors cheating at test areas, to things that can only be imagined, I am disappointed in the quality. I know there are professionals out there, i just haven't met those top tier guys. I am hoping to learn from the pros on this site and to them I am very grateful. But to those who are just blowing, logic itself is a trade and discipline that some us of take great delight in. We weigh not only the facts, but also the vehicles in which they travel. Please, if you don't know something, don't pretend. Just be kind enough to preface your opinions with a qualifying intro. After all that, I would like to agree that the initial inquiry was dismally addressed. As for all the blow about heat pumps, it is common practice to run heat pumps in Indiana, at well below 40 degrees. We use dual fuel or heat banks as back up.The systems work well without calling for backup down to around 20 degrees, depending of course on the design of the house and system. And we don't start at 0 degrees in the house. Once the temperature is up to set point, we leave it on(with all due respect to programming) and the heat pumps due fine. I am not saying that everything that we do is right, but it works pretty well here in the real world. there are some real good hvac people here, I just haven't met the top tier ones, but of course at my level, its' logical I shouldn't. Which is why I am on this web site. thank you, to the good ones


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## beenthere

Welcome to the site.


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## ironpit

thank you for responding. I would like to state an observation or two about a situation and would appreciate your reply. I will skip a lot of facts and details, as your experience will most likely fill in the blanks. I am a small contrtactor who also helps a couple of dealers in central indiana. One of them drives me insane with all of his corner cutting.He has40 years in the business and is highly regarded. he is also a great guy to work with.When we change from 22 to 410 systems, he rarely changes the linesets, some of which are long and, I know, have oil in them. I have spoken with him about the issue, but he doesn't see it my way. I know it depends a lot upon how much oil is present, but how long is it going to take to break these systems down. It isdriving me crazy. We work for some high profile people. When this equipment starts failling, I will be associated with it too. also, I am currently helping him finish up the duct in a very high profile building. The metalduct is next to the roof (it is a commercial flat roof bldg). I am in in time to run the flex. The metal is done. The metal is not insulated and the returns will be pulling from the collars off the duct- no duct to return in the grid. All the return will pull through the egg crate panels. I know the temps ar going to range from an easy 125 just below the roof to 110 just above the ceiling. Is it going to be possipble to cool that building below 80 f and also not have sweating duct. The building is an office environment. If it matters, there is twelve feet above the ceiling and ten below. I am concerned. Please respond.


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## beenthere

If the returns are pulling in the hottest air. Won't be much if any sweating, since the supply duct won't be very cool. And won't be below dew point. As far as will it cool the building? Depends on how the system was sized. If they planned on the cooling of the ceiling, it will, if they didn't, it won't. Plenum ceiling returns should be outlawed. Makes installation easy for us. But has too many pit falls down the road.


As far as line sets. If blown/purged out properly, should never be enough mineral oil left to harm a R410A system.


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